Use a different listening platform? Choose it here.
Claire Carlile is a Local Search Expert at BrightLocal and Head of Pencils at Claire Carlile Marketing, and is someone who is incredibly well respected in the industry. It was a pleasure to interview her.
In this episode, we discuss:
What finding and carving out your niche means.
What impact she thinks the pandemic has had on the way people work and find their niche.
Why finding a niche is important.
Her thoughts on the theory that people should be generalists over specialists.
Advice for someone who’s just starting out in terms of finding their niche.
…and much more!
As always, if you enjoyed this, and previous episodes, please like, rate, share, and subscribe to the podcast – it all helps!
Head of SEO communications at Wix, Crystal Carter joins me on the show to share her reasons on why SEO should be seen as a team sport, and not something that should be looked at in isolation.
*As a reminder, you can now also get this podcast in video form, on both Spotify video, or YouTube.*
Listen/watch now, right above the subscribe button, or pick your favourite listening platform from this list:
Azeem Ahmad: Hello. And welcome back to the Azeem Digital Asks All-Round Digital Marketing podcast. Very, very, very excited to bringing my guest today, Crystal Carter, who I will let her introduce herself properly in a moment. We’re talking all about how SEO is a team sport. Generally, I always give a bit of a blurb about the guest. Crystal is basically everywhere at the moment. So I am very, very pleased that she has agreed to give me, and you when you hear this, up to 20 minutes of her time. She’s absolutely everywhere. A woman in demand. So thank you very much, Crystal. Welcome to the show. Please give yourself a better introduction.
Crystal Carter: I’m really honored to be here. I’m a real fan of the show. I think you do great interviews and make great content. So yeah. Thank you very much for having me along. I am Crystal Carter. I am the Head of SEO Communications at Wix, working alongside the incomparable Mordy Oberstein, and trying to bring you more goodness for all of the SEOs of the world. And basically I am really interested in talking to people about how to use SEO strategically and to use SEO from lots of different angles. And one of the reasons why I was really excited to join Wix, because I joined them recently, is because they have a really holistic approach to digital marketing and to SEO and how it touches on lots of different areas. So I think that’s kind of one of the things that’s a theme of what we’re talking about today, and I’m really happy to get stuck into it.
Azeem Ahmad: Awesome. So let’s just dive right in. The episode is all about how SEO is a team sport. So right from the off, what makes SEO a team sport?
Crystal Carter: Yeah, so what I mean by that is I think there’s historically been a sense that an SEO, and I’ve definitely done SEO in this way, where an SEO can sort of just get their head down and do the SEO. One person does the SEO for the website and at some point the SEO is done. And you can do your meta descriptions and do your alt text and do your internal links and that sort of thing. But I think that the way that algorithms are working at the moment, and I think that the way that users are using websites and accessing content is changing so much that it requires many hands to make light work.
Crystal Carter: And I think that certainly if you look at something like the Core Web Vitals update, that huge experience update, you can see that is not a one person job. That’s not something that involves one team in particular. That involves the SEO, that involves your dev team, that can involve server teams, that can involve legal sometimes if you have to move around what your cookie notice says, and things like that.
Crystal Carter: So that’s something that comes to mind. Another one that comes to mind is around things with like Google Shopping, Google Merchant. The local inventory ads, for instance, that involves local feeds, that involves a what’s in-store, that involves the website, that involves Google Merchant, that involves coordinating with the ads teams to make sure that’s all up to scratch. And so I think that in order for SEOs to provide value, we need to do more sort of team management and not just focusing on sort of say, delivering SEO tasks. And and I think that really involves SEOs taking a leadership approach, which I think a lot of great SEOs really do that.
Crystal Carter: But I think that sometimes you can go into a project or go into an SEO client situation where you might not expect to do that, but as I’ve been working recently, and certainly it’s different from when I first started. It seems to be that in almost every case, you’re managing a team of stakeholders. You’re managing the developer team, you’re managing the social team because you might have to, particularly with tech SEO, sometimes you have to say, “Abby there’s a server can’t actually cope with the traffic that you’re getting from the social ads. We need to readjust our servers so that we can actually serve these ads. So can you just hold on while we sort that out?” And things like that. So I think that there’s someone, I can’t remember his name him off the top of my head, but he’s running an SEO MBA at the moment. That’s mostly it’s talking about not necessarily soft skills, I guess, but around that sort of management, team coordination skill. And I can see you want to come in, Azeem.
Azeem Ahmad: No, absolutely. Please, please carry on. This is solid gold. We’re five minutes in, and already it’s clear to see why you’re so well respected in the industry. You are full of knowledge. So I’m going to shut up and just let you carry on.
Crystal Carter: So, yeah. I think that certainly what I’ve seen from making SEO more of a team sport, I think there’s always a few different elements; which include bringing in people who are competent, but not necessarily SEO capable. So there’s lots of people who know their business, they’ve started a business, they’ve got things going on. They might not know the term for a conversion, but they know when they’ve made a sale. They might not know the term for what we call a soft conversion, or whatever, but they know somebody watched a video and they can tell whether or not there was value in an ad, or some something to that effect.
Crystal Carter: And so it’s very important that we’re able to, as SEOs, communicate the value of that. And it’s very important that we’re able to educate people along that way. So very often in order to make SEO team sport, if you think about a team your bench is deep. You need to make sure that you’ve got everybody there. You’ve got your star players who are out at the front. Now I’m getting really into the sports metaphors. But you set up a 4-4-2, it’s a game with two halves, hope nobody breaks a metatarsal. I don’t know, I’m running out. But basically, you want to make sure that you’ve got the conversions, the star players. I’m going to get into a metaphor now. I’m going to try not to go too far in the weeds.
Crystal Carter: But if you think about something like PPC, that’s very much like somebody who’s hidden goals, right? Their main aim is to get the goals in. And then you got the people who are setting all that up, right? The person can’t score the goal at the end without those people setting all of that up. And then you’ve got the coach who’s thinking about how to arrange everything and how to make everything work and all that sort of stuff. And I guess the server teams is like the groundskeeper to make sure there’s no holes or something, I don’t know. But I think you just need to make sure that everybody’s working all together and that you recognize at what stage you need each player in your team.
Crystal Carter: But I think that things are getting really competitive. I think particularly for the way that the algorithms are, and the way that the SERPs are, there’s so much going on on a single SERP result. You’ve got your ads at the top. You’ve got dropdowns with a bunch of results there. You’ve got your plain blue links somewhere in the mix. You’ve got videos, you’ve got blah, blah, blah. All that different stuff. And really, you need to make sure that you’ve got as many bases covered as possible. And in order to do that, you need to have a good, solid SEO team.
Azeem Ahmad: I love that because I’ve literally got a million more questions. But as I’m thinking of the next question to ask you two second later you answer it. You literally the perfect guest. I could end the episode right there and literally it would be a hit.
Crystal Carter: Mic drop.
Azeem Ahmad: But no, honestly, there are so many things that I’d just love to pick apart there. But I think the main one, really, is we’re talking the whole episode is about SEO being a team sport. But how can SEOs ensure that their team players, it’s very easy from what you’ve just said there, let’s say the SEO is a star player for argument sake, it’s very easy to focus on the self. How can SEOs ensure that they’re team players?
Crystal Carter: Right. So I think this is something that I found a challenge. I certainly found this challenging. I went to my previous team and I said to them, “I want to take management class. I have no plans to be a manager at the minute, but I want to take a management class and I want to learn management tactics.” And I literally did a day course, and it was transformative. There are tried and tested management techniques for how to assess how your team will work together, how to assess either things like Myers-Briggs and things like that, which will tell you that you’ll get more positive results from one person if you approach them in this way, that you’ll get more positive results than if you approach them in the other way.
Crystal Carter: And I think also if you go into the situation of managing SEO as being part of a team rather than being someone who has a task to finish, and don’t get me wrong, sometimes that’s what’s required. With clients in particular, there’s some clients who are happy to just let you go and do whatever and they’re just like, “Here’s the website. Do some stuff.” And there are some clients who they want to ask questions, and they want to be involved, and they want to do the thing, they want you to add value. And they want you to be proactive with all of the different ideas, and all of that sort of stuff.
Crystal Carter: And in that way, it’s very collaborative. And I think that if you’re able to work with people in a collaborative space, then that opens up more opportunities for the types of clients that you can get, the types of clients that you can retain as well. And it’s really a skill that’s worth investing in. Additionally, a lot of SEOs that I know will have, particularly freelance SEOs, will specialize in a particular segment of SEO. So be it content, or technical SEO, or e-commerce, or what have you.
Crystal Carter: But it’s very seldom that a client that you have, that is a good client who respects your opinion, is only ever going to do that one thing, right? They may very well decide that, “Okay, we want to get into social soon.” Well, your client values your opinion, thinks you’re great. That’s cool. So they’re going to come to you and they’re going to say, “Who can we get to help us with social?” This happens all the time. And so if you have good networks, and if you’re able to work with people collaboratively, then they will recommend you and you can work alongside them, and you will recommend them and they will work alongside you. And then you sort of have this sort of back this sort of back and forth.
Crystal Carter: So I would say that it’s worth investing in some management time. And again, like I said, I did a day course. Sometimes I can be quite literal, and I was finding I was like, “Well, I sent him the email and he didn’t send it back.” That’s not good enough. There are things you can do. There are tactics that you can do that people know, like NLP and like lots of different things. And so yeah, if it’s something that you’re struggling with, invest in a management course which talks to you about how to manage other people and how to manage yourself and will make it much easier for you to work as a team. And it will open many, many doors.
Azeem Ahmad: This is solid gold. I’m trying to think of there’s two areas I’d love to explore further. I’m trying to think of the best one to go with first. I’m going to do it this way. This type of thinking that you are displaying now, where did that come from? What made you think to start moving in this direction? And here we are now on a podcast talking about it. But what made you think, “Right, I’m going to start thinking like this?”
Crystal Carter: Well, I think that really it came down to clients really. At the end of the day, particularly if you’re working in an agency or a freelance space, if your clients aren’t getting good results, they won’t stay with you. And sometimes even if your clients are getting good results, or even if you are getting good results, if they don’t feel like you’re on their team then they might not stay with you anyway. And what’s really important is that building that relationship can really make the difference. I’ll tell you one thing, I’ve never shared this. So this is an exclusive.
Azeem Ahmad: Exclusive.
Crystal Carter: I was once doing a site audit for a potential client. And we didn’t actually land the client. We did the audit and stuff, but we didn’t actually let land the client. When I did the audit, the website was a mess. It was a mess. And the client had had their guy, who was their current website person who had been working with them for years, and he sat through the meeting with us and we were going, “Well, there’s this wrong and that wrong. And this doesn’t work. And this isn’t any good.” And afterwards, we didn’t get the account. He’s still on the account. He’s still on the account. You know why? Because he works with them and he’s on their team, right? And they feel like he’s part of their team.
Crystal Carter: So sometimes you’re like, “What is this? This doesn’t make sense.” But I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it so many times. And I think it’s because people feel like they’re on the team. It’s very interesting because I feel like you can take a lesson from everything. After that I didn’t think, “Oh, I’m not going to do a good job.” I didn’t think that. But I thought that this is a valuable skill. Being able to be on someone’s team, and for them to believe that you are on their team. And for them to know that if I’m stuck, I can go to this person and they will help me. And if I’m stuck, this person will do their best to help me. Then when you come to them, you’re like, “I’ve got this great idea to do this thing on the website. I’ve just learned all about this. And we need to be moving over to like this and this and that.” They’ll go, “Okay, cool. Yeah, let’s do that. Let’s go with that. I trust you because you’re on my team and you help me.”
Crystal Carter: And I think also when the pandemic first hit, because I had invested all that time in nurturing client relationships and making sure that they knew that I was on their team. So I’ve had it where people are like, “We’ve got a new person, a new agency, that’s going to be working on this part of the thing.” And I’m like, “Okay, that’s fine. We’re all on a team. Hi there, other agency person. Let’s do all the thing.” I just did a conversation with Google talking about developers. And I do the same approach when I meet new developer teams. So, client comes to you and they’ve got whatever developer situation they’ve got. You don’t wait until things go wrong to say hello to the developers. Developers are constantly fighting fires all the time. And everybody wants something from the developer and everybody wants it yesterday. And everybody thinks whatever their problem is the most important thing in the world.
Crystal Carter: And sometimes you get clients who are like, “Oh, the developer’s terrible. Oh, we ask him for things that he never does anything. Nobody ever does this.” And I’m like, “Okay, all right. Okay.” What did I do? I email the developer and I go, “Hi, I’m crystal. I was wondering if I could just set up a call with you just to say hello. I’m going to be helping out with some SEO in the next little while.” We set up the call and the developer’s there expecting this at the very beginning.
Crystal Carter: And it’s no. Just, “Hi, I just wanted to introduce myself. I take this approach generally speaking. How do you guys work? How do you like your tickets? Do you outsource? How do you all work? Cool. Thanks. Bye.” I want nothing. I’m saying hello. I want nothing. I’m saying hello. You’re setting up that relationship. You’re building trust. Because we’re all a part of the team, right? And then the client knows that you’re working with them. You’re working with these other people. You’re all part of the team.
Crystal Carter: So when the pandemic hit, because I’d spent all that time working with all of those things, I had very little client turn. Very, very little. Yeah, I had very, very little. And actually, when it happened, I know that there were lots of businesses who as soon as it happened everything stopped straight away. Lots of things picked up. We all know it all picked up. But lots of people said it happened straight away. So many of my clients, and God love them, I busted my butt for them during all of this. But they all stayed. You know why? Because they knew I was on their team. They knew that my team was on their team. And we all worked. We were like, “We are here for you.”
Crystal Carter: And one of the things, shout out to my team at Wix, Wix works like this as well. They are there for the team. They want everybody to win. They want everybody to do well on the platform. They work really, really hard to make something that is good. And they spend a lot of time with that. And I think that that’s one of the things that really attracted me to the team. And that’s one of the things that I really value about SEO. Because the other thing is, when your clients feel like you’re on their team, when you win they win. And I remember doing this before back in the day, I’d be like, “Look, I just got us 10% more traffic.”
Crystal Carter: Well, I did nothing. I mean, I kind of did. Obviously, I did what I did, I changed the code, all that sort of stuff, but I’m not doing it by myself. And I had it one time where I was like, “We improved conversions by 10%.” Or, “We doubled conversions. It’s the highest we’ve ever had.” And they were like, “Oh, we didn’t see that.” And I was like, “What do you mean you didn’t see that?” And they were like, “Oh, Julie was on holiday.” “Oh, this, that and the other.” Oh, we didn’t get the thing.” And I was like, “See, if we were on a team, if we had been all working together, I’d know that you didn’t have the infrastructure to handle such a big increase in the first place.” And we could’ve been working.
Crystal Carter: So then we had to work on that part of the funnel, as a team. It makes a really big difference. It gets buy in because people feel like we are all helping. So I stopped saying, “I’ve done this.” And I started saying, “This contributed to X, Y, or Z.” Because, of course, there’s going to be various different things that happen across. They could have gotten a sponsorship. I saw I had one client who had everything go crazy on their site because somebody was on a reality TV show. And the normal traffic was like, “Oh.” And then it was like, “Whoosh.” So I couldn’t be like, “I got this much.” It was nothing to do with me. It’s nothing.
Azeem Ahmad: But you know, people will claim that. People will hundred percent claim that.
Crystal Carter: But clients will notice it. Clients are like, “What?” And you sat there and you’re like, “Look at my chart.” And they’re like, “You’re cuckoo land.”
Azeem Ahmad: Honestly, this is gold. I’m sad to say that we are nearly come to the end of this episode. But I think we can genuinely talk for hours about this sort of stuff. Well, before I ask you the penultimate question, I will say for the listeners, if you are only listening to this in audio format, you can get this video on Spotify and you can also get this on YouTube. I strongly recommend watching because you can hear the passion in Crystal’s voice. You need to watch her when she speaks. Because honestly, she needs a TV show by herself. But yeah. Look back to the point of this episode. Just one question. Perfect way I think to wrap up before you share your contact details. I’m absolutely positive there are either individuals or businesses who will be listening to this and are yet to work in the methods and ways that you’ve just described. What advice would you give them to start adopting this approach?
Crystal Carter: I would say that what’s really important is to focus on the end goal. So if the end goal is to increase sales from a certain channel, then that’s what you should focus on. And you should think about what pieces you need to make that happen. SEO will certainly be part of that. There might be other things that are part that. There might things on the ground that are part of that. And you should be working towards the goal.
Crystal Carter: I’ve definitely seen people who make SEO recommendations for SEO’s sake. They’ll be like, “Oh, I’ve seen this on the report. And I ran this crawl and it says that this is wrong.” It’s like, yeah. But is that actually going to help us get to our goal? And sometimes it’s a case that you need to do those things because obviously nobody wants a bunch of 404s for no reason, or whatever. But you can put them in a sort of a different priority of things ticking along and things that need to be actioned in order to drive the business goals.
Crystal Carter: But I would say, focus on the end result for your client and it makes it a lot easier for them to understand the value behind what you’re doing. We are doing this because it’s going to help us to increase our seasonal sales, or we’re doing this because it’s going to help us get more traffic into the bricks and mortar store, for instance. And then they can go, “Oh, we can also do something to help with that.” And we go, “That’s great. Good. Do that.” And then you can bring it all together.
Crystal Carter: So if you focus on the end result and don’t get too hung up on terminology. It’s great to be smart, it’s better to be effective. So don’t just say a bunch of words that make you sound really clever for no reason. One of the things I always say is if you ever read Albert Einstein, or the theory of relativity, it is written in completely plain English. It’s all a train on a ball, the people on a train. Super plain English. If Albert Einstein can do it, you could do it. So that’s what I’m saying.
Azeem Ahmad: Honestly, this episode is not about me. This is your episode. But I worked with a guy who would just constantly say “Circle back.” Blue ocean marketing.” What the f**k is that? Anyway.
Crystal Carter: There’s funnels and flywheels and 7 Ps and 4 Cs. And there’s…
Azeem Ahmad: What is reminds me of, is.. If you’ve ever wrote an essay and you’re just trying to fill up the word count. It’s just verbal diarrhoea. But yeah, I’ve digressed. Listen, this has been a fantastic episode. I am positive the listeners are going to take incredible value from this. And I cannot let you go with asking you to share your contact details. Where people can find you on social media. And if they would like to learn more about anything that you’ve discussed in this episode, how can they do that?
Crystal Carter: So my main, my main point of contact is Twitter. On Twitter I am CrystalOnTheWeb. And my secondary contact is LinkedIn, which I go on once a week. Although I did change my notifications so I might be on there a little bit more because the notifications, there’s too many. So I’ve reduced them. So hopefully that’ll be better. I am going to be at brightonSEO at the beginning of April. I think you’re going to be there as well. We’re going to hang out. It’s going to be cool. And I’m going to be full on paparazzi mode. So I’m going to be taking as many selfies with everybody from my Twitterland as well. So that’s all going to go on my Instagram, which is also CrystalOnTheWeb_ with an underscore at the end I think.
Azeem Ahmad: Amazing. Yeah. And I can’t believe we have yet to mention on the recording that we both share a birthday. Incredible.
Crystal Carter: Yes. Twinsies. Yes.
Azeem Ahmad: So yeah. Look, I can’t think of any better way to end the episode. This has been absolutely full of gold. I’ve enjoyed listening to you share your wisdom. I’m absolutely positive the listeners will too. If you have listened and you’ve enjoyed this episode, please do the usuals: like, write, share and subscribe. And if you wouldn’t like to do any of that please take some time out. Message Crystal and say, “Wow, you are so full of wisdom. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.” But that’s it from me. We will catch you on the next episode when I can find the stop button, which is here. Peace out. See you soon.
Hello new subscribers and hello 2022…the Azeem Digital Asks podcast is BACK with a bang! If you listen on Spotify, you can now get a video version of this podcast.
Joining me on the first episode of season 3 is the awesome Jasmine Granton, Digital PR Team Lead at Evolved, conference speaker, and co-founder of Chalkboard Creative.
Listen/watch now, right above the subscribe button, or pick your favourite listening platform from this list:
Use a different listening platform? Choose it here. (Full transcript at bottom of page.)
In this episode, we discuss:
-What Digital PR is, and the changes she has seen since she has been in the industry. -The things she has learned from changing jobs in the last 12 months. -What routes are available for people working in Digital PR to progress into. -Advice for a junior level Digital PR do to gain those management skills . -What she things makes a good Digital PR manager, and leader. -How to balance being friendly with professionalism. -Her idea of ‘how you can help yourself and make sure you’re helping your manager help you be promoted’ – and how to do it. …and much more!
As always, if you enjoyed this, and previous episodes, please like, rate, share, and subscribe to the podcast – it all helps!
Azeem Ahmad: Hello. And welcome back to the Azeem Digital Asks, all-round digital marketing podcast. Who would’ve thought that a little project that I started in the first lockdown a couple of years ago would come back to a third season. Thanks to incredible guests like the one that I’m about to introduce you to, and awesome listeners like yourself.
Azeem Ahmad: And hopefully for the first time, all being well, I now have access to video podcasts on Spotify, and I’ll get this on YouTube as well if my editing skills are up to scratch. So if you are watching, hello!
Azeem Ahmad: I have a wonderful guest for you today, so I will shut up in a second. We’re talking all about progression and management within digital PR. My guest is the awesome Jasmine Granton, who’s the digital PR team leader at Evolved Search. Co-founder of Chalkboard Creative. She’s spoken at Brighton SEO and she’s basically a celebrity in this industry. So I’m very pleased to have her on the show. And if I could rate her out of 10, solid 9.9. The only thing that really lets her down is the fact that she chose to support Tottenham Hotspur. So if you do know her, just ask her about that decision. But yeah, Jasmine, welcome to the show.
Jasmine Granton: Thank you very much for having me. I’m glad we’ve got the Spurs stuff out early. Our relationship is built on mutual hatred for each other, so it’s nice to be doing something that isn’t just abusing each other about football for a change.
Azeem Ahmad: Absolutely. And joking aside, thank you so much for joining me. For those people listening who do not know who you are, their loss. Would you mind giving a quick intro to yourself for me please?
Jasmine Granton: Yeah, sure. I think you did a great job. But I’m Jasmine. So I’m the team leader at Evolved Search. Previously I worked at Aira Digital for a couple of years, making my way through the different roles there in digital PR. And as you said, I’m also co-founder of Chalkboard Creative, which is a video production company. So spinning quite a lot of plates at the moment, but it’s all good.
Azeem Ahmad: That’s what we like. So yeah, even after hearing that, I’ll say it again, thank you so much for joining me. So let’s just dive in right to the meat and bones of the episode, talking about progression and management within digital PR. For those listeners who’ve got a broader digital marketing knowledge, would you mind giving a quick intro to digital PR. What it is, how long you’ve been in the industry and the changes that you’ve seen throughout your time in digital PR?
Jasmine Granton: Yeah, sure. So I think it’s worth saying that a lot of what we’ll be talking about today is really transferable across all of digital marketing, and even non digital roles to be honest, because management is a big part of a lot of different people’s careers.
Jasmine Granton: I myself have been in digital PR for about four years now. So I started off in traditional PR and then, like I said, went to Aira. For me, the biggest changes has been, I guess, how we look at digital PR. It’s gone from being link building, which was a small part of an SEO strategy, into something that’s a broader topic. So for me, it’s still an integral part of the SEO strategy and we link build for that purpose. But it’s also part of content marketing as well. It’s become far more creative.
Jasmine Granton: So when I first started, it was a case of outreaching, infographics and giving journalists linkable assets. And whilst that’s still a key goal of ours, we also look at other metrics like search visibility, relevance of links. And really just the change has been the change with Google and making sure that those links are as strong as possible and that they’re read by Google in the best way. So there’s been a huge amount of change.
Jasmine Granton: I think the understanding from clients as well, it’s still a relatively new industry. And again, it’s changed from the old school link building techniques that people used to use to what it is today, which is straddling the SEO as well as the traditional PR content marketing side.
Azeem Ahmad: Love that. Perfect. Thanks very much for sharing that. So in terms of progression and management, somebody listening to this in terms of where they are in digital PR, what routes are available for people to progress into?
Jasmine Granton: I mean, I think it depends if you’re looking at agency or in house. I’ve been in house quite a few years ago now, and then I’ve stayed in agencies for the last few years. So I guess it depends on what your skillset is.
Jasmine Granton: So within digital PR there are a ton of different heads you need. So there’s a really creative side, which is coming up with the ideas, and working with designers and developers. And then there’s a stage which is very almost journalism focused, of writing up the story, the press releases, the copy. And then there’s the reporting, the delivery, the working with the SEO team to work out whether a campaign was successful. So it really depends on whereabouts you sit on that spectrum of skill sets. And you can be quite niche and narrow down your specialism.
Jasmine Granton: So I was an outreach specialist for a while and really built relationships with journalists and aimed to build the links. Versus some friends of mine who are more data and research driven and they’ll come up with the ideas. So it very much depends on your skillset, but it also depends on what your end goal is.
Jasmine Granton: So there are ways that you can go down the management route, which is what I chose. But it’s a great industry, that you don’t have to be a manager to progress. I don’t think everyone should be a manager. There are certainly some really poor managers that I’ve experienced in my time.
Jasmine Granton: So there’s also strategy roles, where again you can focus on what the bigger picture is for the client. What do those links actually mean for them. I think sometimes in the industry, we get a little bit caught up with being like, oh, I built 300 links on this campaign. But you need people to actually tell you what that means. Is it even a good thing. Because that can sometimes lead to negative things on sites too.
Jasmine Granton: So I think there are strategy roles, there are creative roles, there are outreach specific roles. So it really depends on what you enjoy doing, what your skill sets are. And then you can hone in those niches or do what I’ve done, which is go down the management route.
Azeem Ahmad: Brilliant. I’m going to put you on the spot and just pick apart and pick on something that you just said there. So in a second, I’ll ask you about people who are junior and new to the industry. But thinking back to something that you’ve just said there, if I, for example, am listening to this and I’m just about to finish uni and I really want to get into digital PR, but it seems overwhelming. As you mentioned, you’ve got to be creative, you’ve got to be data driven, you’ve got to be X, Y, and Z. What are some of the most common misconceptions in your mind about digital PR that you’d like to just address right now? So for anybody listening who’s thinking about getting into digital PR.
Jasmine Granton: I think the biggest one is that you have to be good at all of it. I mean, if you’re a freelancer, that’s why, I mean, I hang my hat to freelancers if they’re doing all of those areas. I personally am absolutely terrible with data, numbers, it’s just not my bag. I’m definitely more on the writing side. So it’s really important to remember that you’re going to be part of a team. And that whatever skills that you are lacking, somebody else will make up. But you’ll also bring a set of skills that somebody else struggles with.
Jasmine Granton: So finding those teams where you are going to bring something and you don’t have to have the whole skill set. If someone’s equally as good at finding data sources and turning them into stories and building relationships with journalists and writing, amazing. But that’s not me. And I don’t know too many digital PRs who can do all of it. So whilst it might feel a little overwhelming, I think it’s important just to recognize your own skills and know that there’s going to be somebody who takes away from your weaknesses if you do have some.
Azeem Ahmad: Seven minutes in, and this is absolute gold. Thank you so much. So elaborating on the point about juniors then. Thinking about management specifically, the topic of the episode, if there’s somebody who’s quite junior in digital PR now, what would you advise to them to get their management skills, what would they do?
Jasmine Granton: I think there’s quite a lot of things you can do within the role that you’re in. So mentoring is how I started. I don’t personally believe in just given someone to manage and being like, see if you can do it. Trial and error. Because that could be really damaging to the person who’s on the receiving end of that management, if you don’t know what you’re doing.
Jasmine Granton: So I would speak to your line manager and show interest in the fact that you like to mentor or potentially think about putting together a training session on something that you’re really passionate about, and deliver to the team, show that you’ve got the strengths of training and mentoring and helping people progress.
Jasmine Granton: I’d also be reaching out to other people on the team and seeing what support they might need. Check in on people if they seem a little bit off or down, it’s really building those skills that come naturally from empathetic people. Make sure that you’re being a team player.
Jasmine Granton: But more than that, I think it’s really important to mention that there are management courses out there. I personally, haven’t been on one. I think that would’ve helped me early on.
Jasmine Granton: Paddy Mogan, who I used to work for at Aira, is currently putting one on. Definitely check him out on Twitter. I don’t think it’s live yet, but it will be going live quite soon. He’s been working super hard on that. So definitely take a look at that. And any other management training programs that are out there.
Jasmine Granton: And also, I think you can learn a lot from your manager, so speak to them and say, can I talk to you about the one-to-one process? Can I pick your brain on how you deal with certain situations? And I think when somebody is getting to that point where they’re thinking about management, try and think solution focused. So I think the biggest difference between a service provider, whether you’re a consultant or an exec, to a manager, is that quite often you need to be able to solve the problem yourself, or at least come up with a solution. So to start thinking in that way.
Jasmine Granton: And also thinking about delegation, how many tasks do you have? Is there anything that you could be passing down to juniors, and showing them how to do it, and giving them the extra level of confidence and responsibility. I think with a lot of progression, it’s about starting to do the job you want before you’ve got it. And showing that you’ve got those positive attributes that make a good manager or whatever the next step is for you.
Azeem Ahmad: Nothing to add. Absolute solid gold. If I was personally in digital PR in a junior role, I would hit pause, rewind, press play again, and just make tons of notes. This is amazing.
Azeem Ahmad: So I wanted to go back to something that you said at the start of the episode. And you don’t have to go into detail, feel free to share whatever you’re comfortable with sharing. But you mentioned earlier on that you’d been through a few jobs last year and you’d been through different types of managers. Good and bad. What for you makes a good digital PR manager or leader, what qualities do you look for?
Jasmine Granton: I think it’s the same thing that makes any good manager a good manager. I think my number one is trust. I know that the people on my team are better at their job than I would be at their job. And it’s knowing what their skillsets are. And it’s about realizing that everyone is really different. There are some people that I’ve managed who absolutely know where they want to be. They know what their skillsets are. And there’s other people who are slightly more reserved about it. And they don’t really see how strong they are. So it’s about giving everyone a tailored management experience. I don’t treat anyone on my team the same as somebody else necessarily because everyone needs something different from me.
Jasmine Granton: So it’s about, I think for me, a good manager assesses that and changes their approach and adapts their approach to individuals. But I think trust is the main one.
Jasmine Granton: Micromanagement is one of the main reasons I’ve left jobs because I don’t want to be spoken to in a condescending way. I’m an adult, I’m being paid to be here, it’s not school. So I think attitude of managers is really important.
Jasmine Granton: And also giving people the freedom to change their role if they want to. And I think retaining people is all about letting them grow and letting them adapt and not holding them back. If someone says to me, I want to do this training course or in six months I want to be here. It’s my job to help them figure out how we do that. And it’s we, it’s always a we. It’s not, okay, well, go off and do it. So I think it’s about giving enough guidance that they feel supported, but also giving them the freedom to be like, where do you want to be? Tell me where you want to be and we’ll get you there.
Jasmine Granton: So I think the managers I’ve had in the past that haven’t been so great have definitely made me feel that I’m in my place, you stay in your lane, you do your job and you get on with it. Whereas I encourage people to try new things, to fail. There’s never any telling off. I never hold things back for one-to-ones or anything like that. It’s a very honest, open communication at all times.
Jasmine Granton: And for me, it’s being vulnerable as well. I don’t hold back when I’m a bit stressed. If I’ve got something personal going on that’s going to affect me and my working day, I tell them because I expect that level of transparency to be both ways.
Jasmine Granton: So it’s just treating people like humans and having respect for your team. There’s obviously some situations where being a manager can be really challenging if somebody is not performing super well. It’s also not being scared to have difficult conversations and acknowledging that, look, if someone’s not doing well in my team, a lot of that responsibility is down to me. How can I help them? Do they need more training? It’s probably not that they’re just not trying, it’s that they’re struggling. And that’s when I need to step in and do something about it rather than just letting them drown.
Azeem Ahmad: Absolutely. I don’t want to talk too much because this is your episode. But that human side of it is so, so important. So I’m really glad that you touched on that. I’m going to put you on the spot again, apologies. And there’s no way to ask this question without making it sound like it’s a job interview. I promise it’s not. But for me, I’m thinking about what you’ve just said. And certainly in my experience when I’ve managed people, there has been this moment, but I’d love to hear from you, there must have been a moment where you’ve had a really difficult situation and you’ve overcome that. And you’ve thought, okay, I can, I’m ready to become a manager, I am a manager. So essentially it’s a long winded way of asking, what’s the most difficult management experience that you’ve personally had? How did you get through that? And how did you feel on the other side?
Jasmine Granton: I think for me, the harder management experiences is when someone is going through something really personal. Because it’s quite hard as a manager to have the boundary of not overstepping and asking too many questions, but also being supportive. But I mean, at Evolved Search now we have such a great culture of, look, if you’ve got something going on in your life, you deal with it, work isn’t as important as your mental health. Work isn’t as important as family things going on. And the last few years has taught us that even more so.
Jasmine Granton: So for me, I think the hardest challenge is making sure that the team’s wellbeing is strong. Because agency life can be really stressful and work does need to be done and deadlines need to be hit. But it’s balancing that with people’s mental health and with their personal lives.
Jasmine Granton: So I think for me, I don’t find it too challenging to deal with workplace scenarios, but when someone’s got something going on outside of work, I find it hard not to take that on and take it home. And I think, again, that’s something that you need to be prepared for as a manager is that you are everyone’s sounding board, you’re everyone’s counselor to an extent some days. And you need to be able to manage all of that stuff with delicacy whilst also, I’ve got a manager, I’ve got a boss to pass that information up. So it’s making sure that there are processes in place that the team feel they can come to me and talk to me about anything. And that there’ll be a level of confidentiality whilst also explaining to somebody else why someone’s not going to be in for a few days.
Jasmine Granton: So I’ve definitely had situations like that where it’s just taken me a little bit of time to have a think about, right, what is my approach here? How do I have this conversation with them? If they’re off for a few days, do I check in with them or do I just give them space? And I think all of that is dealt with just by communicating and that transparency that I was talking about before.
Azeem Ahmad: Brilliant. I’m quite enjoying putting you on the spot here. And I realize that we are coming towards the end of the episode, so I’m going to give you one more. Everything you mentioned there about being personal and the human aspect, how do you ensure that there are boundaries between being personal, but also making sure that the job gets done?
Jasmine Granton: I think that’s probably the biggest challenge to be honest. But again, I do think it just comes down to communication. In one-to-ones, I have a section on how are things in your life? Not everything is work related. So I always ask, are you okay? How are things going? And that’s not, how are your clients doing, that’s how are you? And making sure that people are okay. And being hyper aware of whether people seem off. And for me, I work predominantly remotely, but I make sure to be in with the team at least once a month. So I can really have some face to face time because I think that’s important.
Jasmine Granton: But in terms of client delivery, that needs to be done too. So it’s making sure that people have the resource. People are so overstretched in agencies and so overworked that they burn out. So it’s making sure to catch that earlier on. So again, letting them know that negativity isn’t a bad thing, you can come to me and have a moan. Let’s figure out, reprioritise, so that we don’t get to that point where you are completely burnt out. And it’s so hard to wind back.
Jasmine Granton: Yeah, I think that’s a long-winded way of answering your question. But essentially the boundary is, they’re a human, they’re a person, to an extent they’re my friends. But also the client’s work is really important. So, me having a good relationship with the client services team, with the account managers, to make sure that I’m accountable for the success of the clients as well, even if I’m not directly working on them.
Jasmine Granton: And I stay quite close as well. So I’ll do my best to be in the client reviews. And I’ll check over the work regularly. I’ll look through link trackers and make sure that the standard is high.
Jasmine Granton: I mean, I’m super lucky that I have an incredibly talented team. It doesn’t take a lot of checking to be honest. They just crack on with their jobs amazingly well.
Jasmine Granton: But it has been a challenge at times. And again, it’s just about being open and honest. And I think when you’ve built that foundation of trust with the people you manage, when you’re giving them criticisms, or when you’re telling them, look, you need to pull your socks up a little bit, we need to see a little bit more. Hopefully it comes from a place of, I want you to do well, I want to help you progress, and I want you to help yourself progress. It’s not a telling off because they’re not performing.
Azeem Ahmad: Amazing. Solid gold. And you mentioned it there. I was going to say it towards the end of the episode, but given that you’ve mentioned it, I’m just going to add to it. I think already from what you’ve shared so far, your team must be incredibly lucky to have a manager like yourself.
Jasmine Granton: They’re bloody amazing.
Azeem Ahmad: And even though this episode is literally about progression and management within digital PR, you’ve already shared so much stuff that’s so transferable across all the disciplines of marketing. Which I think leads me nicely on to my next question. So when we were talking about the episode, you mentioned about how you can help yourself and how you can make sure that you are helping your manager to help you be promoted. How would somebody do that?
Jasmine Granton: I think there’s quite a few ways. Again, you need a good manager in order to do this because they need to be putting in one-to-ones, PDP sessions. They need to be actively working on it too.
Jasmine Granton: But for me, I always was looking at the job spec above me or the job spec I wanted. And a great task is to highlight in green all the things you think you’re already doing, highlight in orange the things that you think you’ve maybe done, but need to work on. And red are the things, okay, I’ve never tried that before, I’ve never done that. And the red things are what turn into your goals or your objectives. So those go into your PDP.
Jasmine Granton: So if the next step up from you is leading on a client, and you’ve never led on a client call, leading a client becomes goal number one. And you speak to your manager, how can I take on this responsibility?
Jasmine Granton: And being open about where you want to be. Not holding back because you think it’s boastful. And bragging, you need to do your own PR. You need to come into one to ones with evidence. You don’t need to be writing constant notes. But I think especially as we’re quite polite when we’re in these situations, but you need to be a little bit tougher and be like, look, I nailed this, I did this really well. I tried this and actually I didn’t do so well at this, so I know I need to work on that.
Jasmine Granton: It’s coming with a level of self-awareness. Because I manage a team of eight, and it’s quite hard for me to have tabs all the time on how amazing they’re all doing. I’ve got so many Slack channels and so much going on. So if you can come to me and be like, hey, this month I’ve done this, this, this, and this. I want to work on this, this and this next month. Then I’m a step ahead and can help you do that rather than having to draw it all out of you.
Jasmine Granton: So make as many notes as you can, have a spreadsheet with monthly wins, have a spreadsheet with your goals and when you’re hitting them. And for me, that’s the best way.
Jasmine Granton: And also, and it’s quite scary to tell your team to do this, you’ve got to have quite a lot of faith in the company you work for, but tell them to look at other job specs. If they’re going to be looking at other roles anyway, if there’s a role at another agency that looks like your dream role, and we don’t have that role, tell me about it. What about that role is really exciting for you? Because we could mold your role into that. You don’t have to leave in order to get it. Progression is not linear, there are so many different ways you can go as we started talking about at the top of the episode.
Jasmine Granton: So it’s just about being really, again, transparency and open conversation about these things and being really clear about what you want to achieve.
Azeem Ahmad: Amazing. Honestly, we could literally talk for hours on this. Digital PR, it’s not something that I claim to know a lot about. But literally in the space of 20 odd minutes, you’ve taught me so much. This has been incredible.
Azeem Ahmad: As I mentioned, sadly we are coming towards the end of the episode, but I always give my guests a chance to sound off, so it’s basically free reign. Anything else that you want to discuss? The floor is open. Within reason of course. So no Arsenal bashing. But is there anything that you want to discuss that we might not have covered already in the episode?
Jasmine Granton: I don’t think there’s anything specific based on management. I guess in terms of what’s going on, obviously Brighton SEO is coming up. I can’t go unfortunately. But I would definitely encourage anyone who is junior to get to events like that, meet people in the industry.
Jasmine Granton: I think the reason I enjoy this industry is because of the people in it. And I think the reason that I did manage to progress quite quickly was because I made connections. I learned so much. There is a ton of free information out of there. And I know that events like Brighton can be quite expensive. But again, speak to your manager, tell them that you’re interested in going to network and to learn.
Jasmine Granton: And there are tons of free events, long, long lists of them. So it can be quite daunting, especially if you are an anxious person or you’re slightly introverted, it can be quite scary, but everyone is super friendly. So I would encourage anyone, especially juniors, to just get out there, talk to people on Twitter. I’ve made so many friends in this industry and have learned a huge amount from them. So yeah, I would definitely encourage that.
Azeem Ahmad: Hopefully I am one of them. Fingers crossed. This has been brilliant. Before I let you go and enjoy the rest of your evening, the most important part is if people are listening to this and they would love to find out more about you, follow you on social media or connect with you, how could they do that?
Jasmine Granton: @GrantonJasmine on Twitter, I’m on there far, far too much. So if you’ve got any questions. I will say as well, whilst it’s not about me recruiting, I am always there to sound any ideas from … if you need anyone to look at a CV, especially young women in the industry, I’m very passionate about helping young women make sure that they’re getting a fair wage and that they’re not being treated poorly as I have in past roles. So if you do need someone to talk to confidentially, just send me a DM.
Azeem Ahmad: That’s brilliant. And I know that she means that because she really is genuinely one of the kindest people in this industry. I’ve got a lot of time for Jasmine. Although I do poke fun at her and I’ll continue to after recording, on the recording I will say that.
Azeem Ahmad: Listen, this is it. This has been an absolutely brilliant episode. Thank you for giving me some of your time and the listeners to share what has been absolutely awesome. I could not think of a better way to bring in the new season of this podcast. The next guest has got a very high bar to live up to.
Azeem Ahmad: So from me, thank you very much for being a brilliant guest. I’ll make sure to put all of your details in the notes of the show. And to the listeners, thank you so much for listening. We will catch you on the next episode.
For the season 2 finale of the Azeem Digital Asks podcast, the incredible Ross Simmonds joins me on the show to discuss getting content distribution right.
Listen now, right above the subscribe button, or pick your favourite listening platform from this list:
Use a different listening platform? Choose it here. (Full transcript at bottom of page.)
If you don’t know or follow Ross, you absolutely should. He regularly shares content on multiple platforms that make you think differently about how you are conducting your marketing endeavours.
He is the founder of Foundation Marketing, a content marketing agency that combines data and creativity to develop & serve ambitious brands. Foundation Marketing provides content marketing services to organisations all over the world ranging from some of the fastest-growing startups & consumer products to global Fortune 500 brands.
Ross and the team at Foundation have launched marketing initiatives that reach millions of people on channels like Instagram, Slideshare, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and more.
In this episode, we discuss:
Why content distribution is important.
How long it took Ross to understand the nuances of each channel.
Examples of brands/companies who’ve got distribution wrong.
How people can start to address their distribution strategies.
What advice he would give to those who feel the same message should be distributed across multiple channels.
How much distribution is too much – knowing how to balance promotion and over-promotion.
…and much more!
As always, if you enjoyed this, and previous episodes, please like, rate, share, and subscribe to the podcast – it all helps!
The Azeem Digital Asks Podcast will return in 2022 – happy holidays!
Episode Transcript:
Azeem Ahmad: Hello and welcome back to the Azeem Digital Asks podcast. I say this all the time, but I swear, I’m really excited for this episode. I have got an absolutely awesome guest, someone I’ve looked up to in the industry for a long time, puts out awesome content, and really when you’re scrolling through Twitter, for example, or any social network, and you see a piece of content from this man, it’s a scroll stop. It makes you think twice about everything that you’re doing. So my guest is the awesome Ross Simmonds. We’re talking all about getting content distribution right. Welcome to the show, my friend.
Ross Simmonds: Azeem, thanks for having me on. I’m looking forward to it. I have mad respect for what you’ve been doing for the space, for the community, for the industry, for the culture. So I’m thrilled to be here and I’m excited to share today.
Azeem Ahmad: Very glad to have you on. So for those in this industry who have been living under rock or might be brand new and who may not know about you and your awesomeness, please, would you give a short intro to yourself, what you do, and why you are such an awesome human being?
Ross Simmonds: So, yeah, I think.. I appreciate that very much, but I would start with, I’m just an average guy who’s done some cool things on the internet. I am a digital marketing strategist by trade, but if you want to go deep into the DNA of me. I’m just a geek who loves the internet and loves playing and having fun with content. So I’ve started a company in the early days called Foundation Marketing, which is a B2B content marketing agency. We’re up to 30 folks today. We work with everything from some of the fastest growing startups and B2B all the way through to publicly traded cloud companies that are worth billions of dollars. And we help them create strategies for how they can acquire new customers or, in general, generate new leads or potentially shift the narrative around their brand as it relates to attracting talent and things of that nature.
Ross Simmonds: But essentially we are a content marketing firm. We prioritize the development and creation of content, as well as the distribution of content. I’m also a public speaker. So I speak on marketing and digital. I’ve done this for years. And in addition to that, I’m a serial entrepreneur. I have a handful of other businesses that I’ve started. I’m an investor in startups and I’m an investor in real estate. I’m an investor in a handful of other things as well. I just love business. I love growth and I love pushing myself to a limit. And I’m also a dad and I’ve got three little ones and that’s one of my proudest joys.
Ross Simmonds: And yeah, I’m just excited to be here. But I would say in the marketing space, one of the things that a lot of people get excited about that I’ve been really pushing forward is the idea of distribution. It’s for years been something that a lot of people have slept on. And one of the things that I think is the most important piece of the marketing mix, but often the most underestimated. And that’s also been what Foundation has really carved up a position in the market as being a leader in, which is content distribution. So enough about me, let’s jump in. I’m really excited to dive into the weeds of it. Let’s do it.
Azeem Ahmad: So I have got quite a few questions for you, all about content distribution. However, before we get into it, I, in my head, need to make this an exclusive episode and it can only be exclusive if you share something with me that you haven’t shared on any other podcast, talk, or anything, public speaking opportunity, anything that you’ve done that could be as big or as small as you want it to be, but something you’ve never shared elsewhere. Putting you on the spot right now.
Ross Simmonds: So here’s something that I have not talked about, but I had this epiphany yesterday, and I think it’s something that I never talk about, but it’s something that needs to be talked about. One of the keys to my success in life is not my consistency. It’s not my persistence. It’s not my ability to understand storytelling. It is the fact that I really did get lucky with an amazing partner who in the early days supported me and my dreams and my vision for where we wanted to go. I can remember… We met in high school. So we’ve been together for a long time, but I can recall a moment where the new PlayStation 3 came out and me and her went to the local mall and we stayed out overnight to be the first ones in line to get this PlayStation 3 because we wanted to flip it so we can make an extra like 300, $200, which at the time, was a whole bunch of money for us.
Ross Simmonds: So both of us stay overnight and we’re sleeping in a bus shelter. And there’s like… Today, I’m like, whoa, that’s wild. Like, what was I thinking? But there’s all kinds of controversy happening all around us with a whole bunch of things that happened that night that we didn’t know existed, but it was scary. But she stayed there with me. And when the doors opened, she told everyone to go to one store and I sprinted down through the mall to get to where we needed to be. And we got the very last PlayStation and then we were able to flip it the next day, but she was like the Bonnie to my Clyde.
Ross Simmonds: And I would say like, there’s no question that, I would say, finding someone who supports you and somebody who helps elevate you and is there to be in your corner is another key thing that can ultimately be one of the biggest life hacks that you can unlock. So shout out to Chris. Shout out to my partner. I think if it wasn’t for her, I don’t know where I’d be. But yeah, that’s something I’ve never shared, but I think it needs to be stated because a lot of people get caught up in their feelings thinking, oh, I did this all on my own. And they oftentimes forget the fact that they’ve gotten a lot of support from other people as well.
Azeem Ahmad: Yeah. That is wonderful. What a lovely story. Thank you very much for sharing that. I’m sure she’ll be pleased, more than pleased to hear that. So let’s get into it, Ross. We’re talking all about content distribution and I think the best place to begin is I’d love to know from you. Why do you think content distribution is important?
Ross Simmonds: Yeah. So if me and you both created a piece of content and let’s say we were both living the exact same life, we had the exact same amount of followers, we had the same message, the same story, et cetera. But one of us happened to have an email list that had 500 more people, the person who happened to have that email list, even if they wrote the exact same piece of content, is going to get more ROI out of their content than in the person who didn’t have that 500 person email list. And I think that simple mental model you need to embrace when it comes to content creation, because distribution is oftentimes the key differentiator between a piece of content that thrives and a piece of content that false flat. I’ve written pieces of content in one year, and then I share it once and I forget about it.
Ross Simmonds: But the moment I actually take that same piece of content that I published six or three or eight months ago, but I got too busy to actually share, and I reshare that intentionally in a community, in a forum, in an email, and I actually spend the time to distribute it, that same piece of content takes off. It’s not by accident. The reality is too many of us, as marketers, as creators, feel like the job is done when we press publish. But in reality, that’s when the job just begins. The job begins when you press publish. You have to now take that thing that you’ve created and start to spread it across the various communities where your audience is spending time. But so many of us get caught up in this idea of let’s start giving each other high fives. Let’s pop the champagne. Let’s get all excited because we press publish, but that’s not the completion. That is not the end of the job. The job begins when you press publish. And that is when you start to invest time in distribution.
Azeem Ahmad: Love that. That is brilliant. I am definitely going to pick your brains more about that later on so hold onto that thought. I love the fact that you mentioned about the email list and branching out into another channel. I think that takes me quite nicely onto to my next question. I’m fairly positive that you are active on like every channel. So, and it’s not just a case of what you see other people do who will copy and paste the same piece of content and distribute it across multiple channels. I think you have the art of content distribution across multiple channels nailed down. So for me, I’d love to know and learn from you. How long did it take you to understand the nuances of each channel?
Ross Simmonds: So it’s a continuous process. Right? Like it’s a constant curiosity and time and energy of studying the behaviors and the things that work on these different channels. And I would say each channel took a different amount of time. I would say I was able to specifically make time for myself. And I do these annually where I give myself a challenge. And the challenge that I give myself is I need to better understand a specific channel. I need to better understand a certain technique. And there’s typically been a direct correlation and relationship between my ability to thrive on a channel and that commitment to saying I’m going to spend some time learning it. So over the past year, I started to double down and spend a lot of attention to Twitter because I started to realize that was a channel that was generating a lot of business for myself and Foundation, but it also gave me the ability to build and develop a deeper connection with a lot of people who I would consider our ideal customer, but also just good people that I want to spend time with.
Ross Simmonds: So I spent time diving deeper into understanding how to perfect my Twitter content. How can I be structuring my formats? How can I tell stories that are better, et cetera? And that methodology of just spending the time is so key. I would say on average, you’re probably going to need a month. And if you spend a month being consistent on a channel, studying the greats and studying the best on that platform, you can learn the codes to success on any channel that you can think of. Now, rather than just giving you a timestamp on how long it should take, I want to tell people the process that you would take to actually do it and do it well. So let’s say you are trying to unlock the best opportunities on Twitter or LinkedIn, and you want to figure out how can I create and distribute content on these channels in a way that is going to drive ROI?
Ross Simmonds: What are you going to do? You’re going to do an analysis of people who are in your industry creating and distributing content on the same topic. But what you’re looking for is that best content that those people have created. So what I would do and what I did for a lot of these channels is I found people who had content excellence on these different channels. And then I reverse engineered over the past year what have been the best posts that this individual has shared and why are these pieces so successful? So I started to break it down and I started to look for trends and I started to look for patterns to better understand what type of things go into these types of posts.
Ross Simmonds: How many hashtags do they use? Are hashtags even relevant on Twitter? How often does a Twitter thread include emojis? How do you format your tweets to make them engaging? How does controversial content work? How does statements work? Like what type of content resonates most? And when you start to pull out those different ideas and trends across the different channels, that’s when you start to find your way. Then you have to experiment. A lot of people just do the research and the planning, and they think that’s it. No. You have to experiment because in that experimentation, you’re also going to find your own voice and how you can take what you’ve learned and turn it into your own.
Azeem Ahmad: Love that. That is absolute gold. Thank you very much for sharing that. And literally, as you were giving that answer, I was thinking like, look, nobody thinks like that. Nobody, certainly in my experience, thinks like you do. There was a talk of yours that I watched recently. And I think you explained it really well, where you talked about, I think you said you were speaking to somebody at a conference, but while you were having that conversation with the person, your brain was going off in a million different directions. And I was like, look what, that is amazing. So look, let’s touch on your career and why people don’t think like that. So you’ve had very long and sort of vast career. I’d love to know if you’ve got any examples of sort of brands or companies who get distribution wrong.
Ross Simmonds: Right. I think the organizations that traditionally get it wrong the most are media companies. I think a lot of traditional media companies, I think a lot of newspapers, I think a lot of the brands that have kind of been able to achieve success on the back of traditional distribution networks are struggling to keep up because for them and a lot of journalists and a lot of report and anyone with that type of experience and background, for a lot of them, what they don’t realize is distribution used to be baked into the newspaper world. Right? Like when it comes to press, you used to always have distribution because people subscribe to your newspaper and then that newspaper would be dropped off at your door. That’s the distribution. That is the original distribution. It was literally to your door. Now because of phones, because of computers, people don’t need it to be delivered to their door so they don’t read it.
Ross Simmonds: They’re not consuming it. But in a lot of these traditional media companies, they over focus on the value of telling these interesting and unique stories and they put a bunch of money into this let’s tell a creative story. Let’s think about the hook. Let’s think about the angle. Oh, we need to have our stories told a certain way and it needs to be done in a gloss, flashy magazine. Like all of those organizations have this mentality that the content is still the most important thing that matters your business’s success. But what they don’t realize that if that content is really good, but it doesn’t actually reach the people that they’re trying to connect with, it’s falling on nobody’s ears so it is not going to be successful for them. So a lot of these old school businesses that I would say were thriving in the eighties, seventies, nineties even have started to dwindle and we’ve seen it consistently. Right?
Ross Simmonds: Like I can remember so many magazines showing up at my parents’ door and I was obsessed with them. I used to get all of the Source magazines and I would read that content every single day religiously. I loved it, but those magazines and that content and their influence on culture has dissipated because they didn’t continue to focus on distribution. And as marketers and as brands and as creators, we need to be thinking the same way. Habits change very quickly. And when we start to see people’s habits change, we need to evolve with them as well. One of the biggest trends right now, and I say with confidence that not a lot of marketers are realizing this, but fast forward 10 years, a lot of marketers are going to regret it, myself potentially included, but look the world of TikTok and vertical video in short snippets are the new wave and that wave of content in that format in that style is resonating with a generation that is going to have influence in the future.
Ross Simmonds: So if we think, oh yeah, it’s just a fad. It’s going to disappear, et cetera. I think that’s a mistake. I think it’s a mistake to assume that just because you don’t get something, as a marketer, that it is not something that we should actually be thinking about having fundamental cultural impact on the next wave. Because I will say with confidence that if you fast forward 20 years, the CMO of a Fortune 500 company is going to say that they learned marketing on the back of TikTok. They’re going to say they followed a bunch of influencers. They followed somebody on TikTok who showed them about creative brand strategy, who showed them about finance, who showed them about how to optimize an ad campaign. And it all happened on TikTok and we’re going to be probably retired, but we’re going to be thinking to ourself. We really should have thought a little bit more about short, sweet video content and how it plays a role in society and culture at large.
Azeem Ahmad: That’s brilliant. Yeah. I couldn’t agree with you more. You made me think of a question which I think follows on wonderfully. So let’s take the pandemic aside for a second, because, so to give you a heads up, I’m going to ask you about ROI, but I want to frame this in such a way that we just put the pandemic to one side for a second. But I say that because I think pandemic has forced a lot of companies and media agencies and marketers to be very driven on ROI, pennies, dollars, cents are tight. They have to do that. That aside, in your experience and throughout your career, how much have you seen the metric of ROI change?
Ross Simmonds: It has changed significantly. I got my start in the marketing world in traditional advertising. So I was working in the world of creative budgets, creative stories, run a TV ad, put up a fancy, cool billboard, come up with a cool snippy radio spot. And back then, it didn’t matter if you moved the needle in terms of revenue. It didn’t matter if you moved the needle in terms of profit. All that really mattered, I believe, back then was whether or not you made the client feel good and sound good and look good in front of their other execs on the team and whether or not you can make that CEO or the leader of the company feel like this was a good investment because somebody on their team text them or one of their friends text them and said I saw a year ad during the Super Bowl. Right?
Ross Simmonds: There was a whole different dynamic back then. Today, I believe we are shifting a lot where metrics matter more than ever, and they have to be tied back to business goals. I think a lot of companies are seeing turnover in the C-Suite around CMOs because our CMOs for a long period of time have overindexed on brand without thinking about the actual business goals and outcomes. Is brand important? No doubt. Is brand a competitive advantage in boring industries in SaaS companies? No doubt about it. Is brand able to give you a competitive edge that actually sustains itself for hundreds of years? We’ve seen it happen, a hundred percent. Brand is very valuable. But there is a increasing desire with all organizations to be able to say that marketing is no longer just an expense. It is an investment. And when your CMOs and your C-Suite start to view marketing as an investment, the CMOs of the world, the VP of Marketing of the world now is in a position where they are not seen as just being a cost setter.
Ross Simmonds: There is someone who is going to put in value in resources and get value back. Ideally 2X, 10X, whatever that may be on the back of their spend. Back in the day, you could just say we’re doing this every single month and it’s just a cost and we’re building brand. But when you are able to be more intelligent about your investments in marketing, in storytelling, in content, it’s going to do you a world of benefit when you fast forward over your career, because you are able to really speak to meaningful, measurable results for the companies. And that ultimately will ensure that you don’t get let go whenever there is a crisis.
Azeem Ahmad: I love that. Thank you very much for that question and answer was fantastic, which made me think more about ROI, especially given your previous answer. On distribution then let’s say companies and brands are listening to this. And at this point in the episode, they’re thinking, look, we’ve got our content distribution strategy. We’ve got that wrong. We really need to rethink it. Hopefully that’s happened about 20 minutes into this episode, a little light bulb has gone off.
Ross Simmonds: Yeah. Right.
Azeem Ahmad: What would you say to them now? Where can they start to address their distribution strategies?
Ross Simmonds: So the first thing that everyone is going to say, in as it relates to their content distribution strategy, is we don’t have time to do it. Like we don’t have time to distribute our content. We have so much more content to create. And by the time you’re actually listening to this episode, I would assume that over the last 12 months, you’ve probably created some content, maybe a lot of content. And I would say, you’ve probably not distributed the content that you’ve already been producing enough. So where do you start? You start with the content that you already have, and you start to look at what pieces of content that we publish in the past that we can start to distribute in the future and for the years, if not months, to come, because oftentimes we make that mistake of pressing publish and thinking that job is done and onto the next one. Let’s start creating more content and publishing more content.
Ross Simmonds: What I would say they need to do is stop thinking they don’t have time into just potentially stop creating so much content. Scale back on the amount of content that you’re creating so you can actually allocate your energy and time to distributing some of content that you already have, because here’s the thing. That piece of content that you might have published in February, 2019 has not been seen by anybody who now follows you in March 2023. Nobody is still seeing that content. Yet the value, the asset, the pieces in that content that you created way back then is still just as valuable to your audience as it would be today. So what do you need to do? You need to take that same piece of content, update it with some new stats, if it’s required and if it’s necessary, but then you need to distribute it.
Ross Simmonds: You need to share that on Twitter. You need to share that on LinkedIn. You need to take that same piece of content that you created back in 2019, and turn it into an email. You need to take sections of that same piece that you created back in 2019 and start giving them to your sales team so they can share them as LinkedIn updates with just screenshots. You need to take sections of that, turn it into a PDF that can be uploaded to LinkedIn as a carousel, or upload it to Instagram as a carousel. You need to then take all of those and screenshot them, turn them into vertical imagery, and start uploading those as a story on your Facebook account, on your Instagram account, on any of the platforms that allow you to have a story. You’re going to also take that same concept. And you’re just going to go on Twitter spaces and read the piece.
Ross Simmonds: But you’re going to add a little bit of commentary around what this element was and what this thing was that you created. You’re even going to take elements of it and re-upload them to LinkedIn.com as a full article. You’re going to take that same piece. You’re going to update the date and you’re going to share it on Medium.com as well. You’re going to go into groups like Reddit, Facebook Groups, Slack groups. You’re going to go into Stack Exchange. You’re going into various communities where your audience is spending time. And you’re going to see that community with the same post that you published in 2019.
Ross Simmonds: That’s not what you’re going to end with though, because there’s also a bunch of questions that that piece that you created in 2019 answers that your audience has also asked on a site like Quora. So you’re going to find those questions on Quora that people asked that this piece that you created back in 2019 answers, and you’re going to take sections of it. And you’re going to answer those questions on Quora with links going back to that original piece. When you do this, you have now replaced all of the time that it would’ve taken for you to create one new piece of content. But by doing this, you are now taking an asset that invested in back in 2019 and reaping the reward and gathering dividends from it in 2022.
Azeem Ahmad: Solid gold, absolute solid gold, literally the blueprint there to go ahead and nail distribution. I wanted to hone in on something you said at the very start of that question though where you said we don’t have time to do this. People, listen. We don’t have time to do this. Often I’ve heard it in the past, we have this piece of content, content X. I’m a CMO. I’ve said, right, content X, put it out across every channel.
Ross Simmonds: Yeah.
Azeem Ahmad: Do nothing of what you just said. Just put it out on every channel. Scatter them. See what sticks. And we’ll do more of that. If there’s somebody listening to this who heard exactly what you’ve just said, but still thinks scatter gun approach, put it out, same message, multiple channels. What would you say to them?
Ross Simmonds: The people who are consuming content on Twitter have an expectation for a certain type of content. The people who are consuming content on Instagram are expecting a certain type of content. People on LinkedIn are expecting a certain type of content. So when you make the mistake of assuming that everybody wants the same type of content served up the same way you’re going to fail. Right? Like you’re going to fail. You have to take the piece of content and tailor it for the audience and the channels that you’re going to be sharing it on. I have a very brutal experience with this. Like when I first got started on Reddit marketing, I took a piece of content. I used the exact same tweet headline, and I uploaded it to Reddit. And I included a link and I pressed submit, and I thought that I would break the internet. I thought this is going to generate tons of engagement.
Ross Simmonds: You know what happened? I got banned. I got blocked from Reddit. They said, you’re out of here. Bye Felicia. Get out. You’re gone. You’re done. Like you are not allowed here because of what you’ve done. And that was a eyeopener for me that you have to realize, as a marketer, there’s people on the other end of the dashboard. There’s people on the other end of the pixels. There’s people on the other end of the keyboard. And when you put yourself in their shoes, what do you think they want? They don’t want the same exact piece of content that would be delivered on one channel to delivered on the next. You have to understand that every single channel is different and you have to deliver them different types of content.
Azeem Ahmad: Love that. That’s brilliant. Thank you very much. Selfishly, and I’ve got you on the podcast and we’re crossing this divide.
Ross Simmonds: Indeed.
Azeem Ahmad: This is why the eye would definitely love to learn more about you from. A lot of my friends, and I had a conversation with one very recently, we were talking about this podcast and we were talking about distribution. And I have said, look, this is when I release an episode. This is how I’ll release it. And here’s how I’ll share it. I don’t think I should do any more than that because it would probably be over posting. They said to me, this is such a British thing that they don’t want to be seen as self-promoting or posting too much. So my question to you is it is often seen as a British thing that we don’t want to do too much. How much distribution is too much?
Ross Simmonds: Right. So here’s something that a lot of people often don’t even realize I’m Canadian and we don’t want to promote anything ever. Canadians just are like we’re too humble to ever want to promote things and amplify things. It’s a whole different dynamic of not wanting to do anything. But here’s what you really have to realize is I think that a lot of it is rooted in something that is fundamental across the board. And as much as a lot of folks in North America would say amplify amplify, amplify, promote, promote, promote. I would still say today, the vast majority of creators do not promote their content as much as they should. And the reason why is a fear of judgment. We are afraid of being judged. And I think that that is one of the biggest things that not only holds us back from promoting our content, but it’s also one of the biggest things that holds us back from achieving the life that we want to live.
Ross Simmonds: So I challenge everyone to try to really spend time understanding, and it’s a lot of self-work, but figuring out why you’re afraid of what other people think of you. You have to think about why should I care so much about what other people think when I’m doing it with one intent, which is to add value to the world. If you share your podcast episode and you can impact somebody’s life in a positive way because you were promotional, who cares that one person thought you were promotional and spammy? Who cares that one person unfollowed you? At the end of the day, if you are adding value to the world and you believe truly that the content that you’re creating is good, this is the blanket statement that you need to ingrain in your mind.
Ross Simmonds: There is somebody out there right now struggling and having a very difficult time with a problem that your content could solve. But because you do not feel like you want to be seen as too promotional, that person’s never going to get help. And that person is going to continue to struggle. They’re going to continue to have challenges all because you won’t press promote or retweet or publish or reshare because you won’t spend the time to reshare something you created a few weeks ago, a few months ago. So you’re doing a disservice to the world by not promoting your content. So when you have that mindset, it hopefully changes everything.
Azeem Ahmad: Hundred percent. You’re going to see on my Twitter feed now.
Ross Simmonds: I love that.
Azeem Ahmad: Before we part ways, Ross, I would love to pick your brain specifically about…
Ross Simmonds: Let’s do it.
Azeem Ahmad: … Twitter and how much it’s changed. So for me, I’m very active on Twitter. And just talking back to the last question there, not out of choice or I want to keep a specific ratio, but I don’t follow many people because I want to be able to manage the amount of time that I spend on Twitter. So I only allow myself maybe an hour a day tops on the app. If I go past an hour, boom, I can’t access it anymore. Otherwise I’ll be too long on there.
Ross Simmonds: How do you do that?
Azeem Ahmad: There’s a setting on my phone, like a timer for the app.
Ross Simmonds: Nice.
Azeem Ahmad: And if I go over that, the app greys out and it says you’ve reached a limit for today. So say for example, I’ve passed my hour and somebody tweets me or DMs me, I won’t see it until the next day.
Ross Simmonds: Awesome.
Azeem Ahmad: I found that during the pandemic, for example, my screen time was through the roof.
Ross Simmonds: Right.
Azeem Ahmad: I say during the pandemic as if it’s ended, but my screen time was through the roof. So back to what I wanted to ask you. In terms of discovering new people, so rather than content discovery, people discovery, and discovering new people to discover new content. For you, what’s your process? Say you open up somebody’s Twitter feed and say you saw the first 10 tweets and it was all about themselves. Like for example, you opened up my feed and my last 10 tweets, here’s my podcast last week. Here’s my podcast last month. Here’s my podcast from 18 months ago.
Ross Simmonds: Yeah.
Azeem Ah
mad: For me, having only been on Twitter for a handful of years, my perception of it is for people to gain followers in an audience, you’ve got to try and provide some sort of value to them as well, which you could argue that your content would do, but most people would say I didn’t follow Azeem because his last 10 tweets are all about himself.
Ross Simmonds: Right.
Azeem Ahmad: Where’s that medium? How do you find providing value to someone without really just saturating people’s feeds full of the same stuff?
Ross Simmonds: Good question. So what I think is happening on Twitter is people are looking at your last few tweets to make a decision, but more than anything, they’re also so looking at your bio. I think bio is more important now than it’s ever been in terms of like converting people. And you have to think about your bio in a way that’s going to demonstrate why someone should follow you. And I tell people in my bio, I believe, what they can expect. So these are the types of things that I’m going to tweet about. And that is meant to kind of let people know, this is what you can expect by following me. Now in the first few tweets that you have, I think the pinned tweet is one of the most important and valuable tweets that you have also. It’s kind of like your Twitter billboard.
Ross Simmonds: And what I would encourage people to do is don’t just pin your most popular tweet, but pin a tweet that you want people to really use to better understand why they may want to follow you. So that could be an insight into what you talk about. It could be an insight about the stories you’re going to tell. It could be a link to your best clips. It could be a series of your best threads, whatever it may be, but you want it to be value filled to give people a perspective on what you offer. Then the first few tweets that you have, I think there’s a blend that you are looking for, a blend between content that is driving people off of Twitter and content that is native to Twitter. So for your situation where you’re sharing your podcast, I think that’s fine.
Ross Simmonds: I think that’s good. But what I think to also be thrown in the mix there is a few pieces of content that are native to Twitter without any call to action of trying to get people to go somewhere else. So you’ll notice oftentimes I will share tweets that don’t have any links in them, but it’s just like, here are five things that I’m thinking about on marketing. And then I will just list those things with no links any where included in them. I will sometimes come back to these tweets when they are generating traction and reply to it with a link to a newsletter or to something that I want people to dive a little bit deeper into.
Ross Simmonds: And I do that because once that piece has generated its engagement and has started to spread, it’s now showing up on other people’s feeds because they’re retweeting it. And most people will now click into the comments to see the thread and what dialogue took place. And if I can be the first person there with my own content, it’s going to drive the conversions that way. So long story little bit longer, the goal that I would say is to find a mix between native Twitter content, as well as content that takes people off of the site. And when you can do that at close to a 50/50 mix, then you’re in a really good spot.
Azeem Ahmad: Solid gold, again, as this whole episode has been. Thank you very much for sharing that. Before we part ways as it is the finale of this season, I’d love to open the virtual floor for you to discuss anything you want to, within reason, of course, but virtually the floor is yours.
Ross Simmonds: Yeah. I think, for me, I really hope folks get a lot of value out of this. And I think one of the key things that I would also encourage people to think about is experimentation. Right Experimentation and marketing and business is one of the key things that allows us, as people, to continue to improve. When you look at the pandemic and you look at where we are, we are only there because of experimentation. And when you think about experimentation in marketing, it’s something that we often shy away from. And it’s oftentimes something that people just kind of think, oh no, you can only do an AB test on buttons. You can only do an AB test on subject lines. No. You could run fundamental experiments that change the way that marketing is done within your organization. So when you are experimenting with a new distribution channel, you’re experimenting with a new info engagement, you’re experimenting with sponsoring sub stack, you’re experimenting with all kinds of different things.
Ross Simmonds: I encourage you to realize that this is how you find breakthroughs. So I push you to constantly be thinking about how you can experiment because it’s through those experiments that we, as an industry, are going to be able to push each other forward. And it’s how we are going to be able to continuously level up our skill sets. So experimentation is something that I would really encourage folks to lean into heavily. And also to wrap this up, my hats off to you, Azeem, for pouring in this to life. I think we need more people creating content like this on a regular basis in the industry, because at the end of the day, the world is becoming more borderless. And we are now at a point where we can connect with people all over the globe and have a massive impact that lasts beyond even our years on this earth.
Ross Simmonds: So my hats off to you for making the time on a consistent basis to add this type of value to the community, to the culture, to the industry, because we need to see it. And the more that we can do this type of thing for each other, we can elevate the entire industry because there’s no reason for somebody graduating from high school to think to themselves marketing isn’t for me, because of where I come from. Marketing is for me, because I’m not technically savvy. Marketing isn’t for me, because I’m not somebody who already has access. I don’t care where you live, where you’re from, what your background is, you should have a space in marketing and be comfortable in the idea that you can come into these spaces and do amazing, game changing, industry changing, potentially world changing work. So my hat’s off to you for bringing this podcast to life. And it’s been a pleasure to chat with you today.
Azeem Ahmad: You are amazing. Thank you very much. Do you know what? It is almost 9:00 PM, for me. I’ve been awake since 5:00 AM. There’s probably enough caffeine in my body to kill a horse, but that right there has made it worthwhile. So I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Before I let you go, Ross, I have to give you the chance to, if people want to find out more about you, if they want to follow you on social media, connect with you, more importantly, get that awesome newsletter of yours. How can they do that?
Ross Simmonds: Yeah. So hit me up on Twitter. You can find me @TheCoolestCool. That’s my Twitter handle on pretty much all of the various platforms. I’m also on LinkedIn so just send me a connection request. I do have a lot of them. So send me a note in the comments. Just say I heard you on Azeem Digital Asks, and I’d be sure to connect with you there. And then if you’re interested in the newsletter, check out the link in my bio on all of the different platforms or send me a DM and I’ll get it over to you. But FoundationInc.co is the brand. We’ve got a newsletter that covers all of the latest and greatest insights around some of the fastest growing SaaS companies today, as well as a Thursday newsletter, that kind of recaps and summarizes everything you need to know.
Azeem Ahmad: Amazing. All that’s left for me to say is thank you so much for being an incredible guest and what a way to close out the end of this season. So thank you very much. I hope the listeners have enjoyed this episode and when you finish listening, listen to it again and again, and then 10 more times, and then make sure you hit subscribe, but from me to you, Ross, thank you so much.
The brilliant Vikki Ross joins me on the show to discuss why tone of voice is important in your messaging. I really enjoyed this one and learned a LOT.
Listen now, right above the subscribe button, or pick your favourite listening platform from this list:
Use a different listening platform? Choose it here. (Full transcript at bottom of page.)
Vikki has been writing copy for major global brands for 24 years. She specialises in branding and tone of voice and travels the world telling businesses how to talk. They ask her to – she doesn’t just turn up and shout through their window.
She mentors at the most-awarded ad school, School of Communication Arts 2.0. She judges at international industry award competitions. She runs copy masterclasses for D&AD and speaks at global events. On Twitter, she created #copywritersunite – a hashtag to support and celebrate copywriters.
Creative Equals named her one of the industry’s Top 30 Female Creative Leaders, The Dots named her one of the Top 100 Trailblazers redefining the creative industry and Women in Marketing gave her a Special Award for Outstanding Contribution to Marketing.
In this episode, we discuss:
How to define what tone of voice is.
The damage that having a wrong tone of voice can have on a brand.
How much emphasis brands should place on tone of voice.
The benefits of having the right tone of voice.
What she would say to someone who feels that tone of voice isn’t a priority.
Tips for those who want to take an inward look at their brands tone of voice in order to understand if it’s right for their customers or not.
…and more!
As always, if you enjoyed this, and previous episodes, please like, rate, share, and subscribe to the podcast – it all helps!
Azeem Ahmad: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Azeem Digital Asks Podcast. Really looking forward to this because it’s a topic that I haven’t covered in nearly 60 episodes; which is shameful of me but good for the audience, because I have got a feeling that you and me are going to learn lots. The episode topic is all about the benefits of having the right tone of voice in your messaging.
Azeem Ahmad: I have an absolutely incredible guest, who I’ve just been picking her brains off recording, the wonderful Vikki Ross. And I’m going to steal a little bit of her bio, and then she’s going to give herself the full introduction.
Azeem Ahmad: Vikki’s been writing copy for major global brands for 24 years. She specializes in branding and tone of voice, and travels the world telling businesses how to talk. They ask her to, she doesn’t just turn up and shout through the window.
Azeem Ahmad: Love that. Vikki, welcome to the show.
Vikki Ross: Hi, there. Thank you for having me.
Azeem Ahmad: It is an absolute pleasure.
Azeem Ahmad: So I did steal a little bit of your bio there, apologies. But for those listeners who have been living under a virtual rock, would you love to share a little bit more about yourself, please?
Vikki Ross: Sure. I’m a copywriter. I love writing copy for brands and talking to their audience in a way that’s unique to them. Like you said, I specialize in branding and tone of voice, which means I get to go behind the scenes and find out all about a brand and then find a way for them to express themselves.
Vikki Ross: And on top of those things, I mentor young creatives, I judge industry award competitions. And the going around the world bit, speaking at conferences, like you mentioned, that’s obviously been on hold for the last year and a half or so with the pandemic. But I’ve been busy doing virtual talks.
Vikki Ross: And it only occurred to me this week, when I had a minute just to reflect, that I’ve done more talks and workshops this year than I have ever. And I think that’s a really good sign of the health of the industry and their interest in copywriting and branding, which I’ve often had to fight for before. So I’m really encouraged that so many people want to focus on it and just have better conversations with their audience.
Azeem Ahmad: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. And you are incredibly busy, so I thank you very much in advance for giving me and the audience some of your time today.
Azeem Ahmad: Let’s get right into it then. So we’re talking about the benefits of having the right tone of voice in your messaging. And I think there’s not a better place to start than the definition of tone of voice. So, Vikki, I’d love to learn from you, how would you define tone of voice?
Vikki Ross: Well, I like to always keep things really simple and make people feel that learning what I have to say is easy. So really simply, and succinctly, a tone of voice is how a brand talks and what a brand says. But I will go into more detail to elaborate on that statement. And that is the how, the how of the tone of voice, the how a brand talks. That bit is the bit that makes a brand’s audience feel something.
Vikki Ross: So if a brand’s tone of voice is informed the audience might feel reassured that they’re in the right place, they’re with a brand that understands their needs. So an example of that would be a bank, I guess. And if a brand’s tone of voice is cheeky, say, the audience might feel like they’re with a brand they can have fun with, like Nando’s. Nando’s, one of their tone of voice principles is cheeky. And it’s come into everyday language, people say they’re going for a cheeky Nando’s.
Vikki Ross: A tone of voice is a brand asset. And all brand assets work together to evoke an emotion in the audience. So if a brand doesn’t make people feel anything, they’re not likely to do anything, like buy the product or click a call to action, or follow them on social, or whatever it is that the brand needs people to do.
Vikki Ross: So that’s about the how, how the brand talks. The what bit is what the brand says. Which is slightly different to the how, it’s maybe a bit more practical and technical. But it’s the typical words and phrases that bring the how to life and reflect the category the brand is in. And it’s also the words and phrases that always connect people back to the brand; like Airbnb will always say host, Disney will always say magic, and McDonald’s will always say loving it.
Vikki Ross: So sometimes a brand will say to me, “It’s really difficult to always be on-brand in everything that we do and say. How can we make it look like we are?” And so I advise to just use your brand words. So if you sprinkle a loving in for a McDonald’s copy, people will always think that’s McDonald’s talking, even if the rest of the copy doesn’t feel like it’s on-brand.
Azeem Ahmad: Yeah, that’s brilliant. Thanks so much for sharing that, certainly got the cogs in my brain turning. Because sometimes, speaking purely as a consumer and not a marketer, you probably don’t even notice things like exactly what you’ve just said. And that’s a testament of how well that these sort of things work.
Azeem Ahmad: And I think you touched on it in your answer there, but I’d love to learn a little bit more about, certainly, from your experience, how would having the wrong tone of voice affect a brand?
Vikki Ross: I just want to touch on what you just said, if you don’t mind? About the consumer not noticing-
Azeem Ahmad: Absolutely.
Vikki Ross: … and that being a sign of a good tone of voice. You’re right, the consumer probably doesn’t notice. Or they do notice, but they don’t know what it is that they notice. They’re never going to say, “Oh, I buy Coca-Cola because I really like that the brand makes me feel happy.” But they do feel something, even if they haven’t put their finger on it and articulated it, because that’s why they return to the brand and become repeat buyers.
Vikki Ross: But anyway, in answer to your next question: what effect does the wrong tone of voice have on a brand? Sorry, I was trying to remember how you positioned the question. I don’t think I’ve thought that a brand has the wrong tone of voice. But that’s an interesting question that I’m going to now look and reassess, are there brands that I think talk in the wrong way?
Vikki Ross: But I have seen wrong executions though. For example, years ago, when Innocent, here in the UK, first came on the scene and spoke so differently to any other brand before. I remember Barclays Bank seemed to try giving their tone of voice a go. And they put a poster in their branch window that said, “Through these doors, walk the loveliest people in the world.” And it was so cringey because it just wasn’t how they spoke, that wasn’t in their tone of voice. So it felt really wrong.
Vikki Ross: And the other thing that brands get wrong with tone of voice is they don’t think they need to use it everywhere. So Barclays, they stepped out of line with what their tone of voice was and adopted another one for a brief moment. But the consistency is really important. And often brands will be consistent in the big stuff, like they’ll use their tone of voice in the TV ads or on websites and in the shops at point of sale for example, but they don’t always use it in the small stuff, like text to customers or the cookies message or calls to action.
Vikki Ross: And it’s really important for a tone of voice to be effective, that it’s used in everything, everywhere. Because that’s how a customer gets to know the brand at every touchpoint. And when a brand does get it wrong, it can make people feel uncomfortable. Because if they’re brought into a brand’s way of talking and then the brand talks differently, they might notice and they might wonder why. And then they might wonder if this is still the right brand for them.
Azeem Ahmad: Absolutely. And I couldn’t agree with you more. I completely missed that one about Barclays. But, yeah, 100% cringe.
Azeem Ahmad: So let’s move on then, you talking about brands and their tone of voice. So in my experience … which is far less than yours, so I’m very happy to bow down and learn more from you … when it comes to putting together campaigns and executions and stuff, tone of voice is not always top of the list, if it is even on the list at all. So how much emphasis do you think a brand should place tone of voice?
Vikki Ross: Lots. Lots and lots and lots of emphasis. They should place the same emphasis they place on their logo, on their tone of voice. Because tone of voice is as much a brand asset as a logo. And brands use their logo everywhere, so they should use their tone of voice everywhere too. It’s what makes people recognize and remember the brand.
Azeem Ahmad: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we touched on it earlier, but the benefits of having the right tone of voice. So you used the example of Barclays there, and it was completely a mile off. And earlier on, I mentioned about those brands who’ve got the right tone of voice. And certainly, as a consumer, I didn’t even notice that.
Azeem Ahmad: What would you say are some of the benefits of having that right tone of voice?
Vikki Ross: Having the right tone of voice attracts the right audience to your brand, and it sets up what the brand looks and feels like when you’re with them. And if a brand talks to their audience in a way they’ll find incredibly interesting, or even entertaining, they’re more likely to want to spend time and money with them and … think I said this before … to be a repeat part of that brand, like a customer.
Azeem Ahmad: Yeah, absolutely.
Azeem Ahmad: Okay. So these next couple of questions, I always just try to frame them with my guests in the sense of: there are people in the marketing industry who are listening to this episode and have maybe already, in 10 minutes or less, been influenced by some of the things that you’ve said. However, there are always people in the industry who are very hard and fast about, “We are always going to operate in this way.”
Azeem Ahmad: So for those people who feel … even before the episode, and probably during, and maybe after … that tone of voice is not a priority. What would you say to those people who don’t think that tone of voice is a priority?
Vikki Ross: I would say they don’t understand tone of voice. And, look, it’s not an unusual question, people often say this when they think they don’t have time to focus on the brand side of their brand and they just want to put a sales message out. And it doesn’t matter how it looks and feels, as long as it gets a sale.
Vikki Ross: And they probably will get a sale. But they probably will get more sales if the message is delivered in a way that represents the brand better, because people will get more of a feel for what the brand’s offering.
Azeem Ahmad: Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. Sadly, there will still be those people, probably long after this episode is published. But, stuff them. That’s what I say.
Azeem Ahmad: For those people then who are listening to this episode, and, in the opposite, think, “Right. Okay. We really need to take an inward look at our brand’s tone of voice,” what advice would you give to them if they wanted to take that inward look in order to understand if the tone of voice that they’re using now is right for their customers or not?
Vikki Ross: I would advise them to have a really good chat. I’d gather as many people from around the business as possible, and advise that they ask themselves lots of questions about the brand to determine what the brand does. So what’s its product or service? Why the brand does it? And who the brand does it for? So, its audience. Who it’s talking to. And how does the brand want to make those people feel? And look at competitors and see what they’re saying and how they’re saying it.
Vikki Ross: So by the end of all of that discussion, research, and investigating, you find a way to talk that’s incredibly interesting, like I said before, and clearly unique to your brand.
Azeem Ahmad: Brilliant. This has been absolutely brilliant. Before we part ways, I would absolutely love to pick your brains about a couple more things.
Azeem Ahmad: So, firstly, let’s say people get together and they are in that meeting, and they’re asked the question, “Right. We need a quick win to improve our tone of voice.” Firstly, is there such a thing as a quick win? And if there is, would you mind sharing one or two of those, please?
Vikki Ross: I think one idea is, lots of people find it easy to adopt a tone of voice if they imagine that the brand is a person or a character. And lots of brands come with a character, or the founder has a personality that’s influenced the brand personality. So Richard Branson, for example, big and bold and flamboyant. I mean, you could describe the Virgin brand in the same way as you describe him.
Vikki Ross: But if you’re going to create a character, then just try and make it a really rounded character. What do they do? What do they think? What do they feel? What do they typically say? What do they like? What are they interested in? It just helps you imagine who you’re writing on behalf of.
Vikki Ross: Or you could lean on a celebrity that perhaps the company knows well that you might not have a relationship with, they’re not your mascot, but they influence how you write. So lots of brands, if they just want to be kind and friendly and warm and relatable, they might say, “Our brand is just like Holly Willoughby.” She comes up a lot as someone who we all know is just really nice and down to earth and speaks very conversationally. So it’s always good to look to somebody that can help you, if you are looking for a quick win, for how to define your tone of voice.
Azeem Ahmad: Absolutely brilliant, as has been all of your answers.
Azeem Ahmad: The last one I would love to learn from you on. Certainly more recently, I’ve noticed that there are people very new to the industry who’ve been listening to the podcast and picking up tips. So if there are people who are very new to the industry and want to explore this avenue, this specialism, what advice would you give to them? And where can they start? And how can they pick up and essentially become half as skilled as you?
Vikki Ross: Find the brands that you like, as a customer, and start writing for them. A good copywriter can write about anything, with lots of research. But a really good copywriter can write better when they have a love for the brand that they’re writing for or the product that they’re writing about. So find the brands that you love and that you use and, as I said, start writing for them.
Vikki Ross: And an easy way of getting into their tone of voice is to copy out something they’ve already written and then carry on writing. Because you’ll feel like you already write for them. And then what you carry on writing is just seamless, or it makes it easier for you to have got in the mind of the brand already.
Vikki Ross: And then when I say start writing for them, that sounds like you’re just getting yourself the job of writing on behalf of Nike, for example. But start writing for them and then send your work to the brand and marketing people at Nike, for example, or the agency who has their account. You can find people’s contact details online so easily now. And start a relationship with those people, and you never know what might happen.
Azeem Ahmad: Definitely. It’s quite scary when you say it like that, you can find people’s contact details online.
Vikki Ross: I know. Yeah. I don’t mean stalking. But I think sometimes people are quite passive in looking for a job, and they’ll apply for a job to a no name no face advert. But, actually, you could just be proactive and productive and contact someone directly and be interesting and interested, and hopefully, like I said, start a relationship with them.
Azeem Ahmad: That is an absolutely brilliant piece of advice. Thank you very much for sharing that.
Azeem Ahmad: Sadly, Vikki, we are nearly coming to the end of the podcast. But one thing I do with all of my guests is essentially give them an open floor for them to speak about anything that we haven’t really covered yet in the episode, within reason. So if there is anything that you’d love to cover now, the virtual or audio floor is all yours.
Vikki Ross: Aw, thank you. Well, we’re coming up to Christmas. And so every year I put out, on Twitter, a Christmas copy bingo game. If anybody would like to join in? It’s just a bit of fun, looking for all those Christmas cliches that we find in the copy.
Vikki Ross: And I usually moan about the one phrase that we see every Christmas in everything, which is: all wrapped up. So perhaps if I can leave your listeners with anything, please don’t ever write all wrapped up. Everyone does it.
Azeem Ahmad: Love that, free Christmas tips as well.
Azeem Ahmad: And you mentioned your social there. Perfect way to come towards the end of the episode. If there are people listening to this who would love to connect with you and follow you on social media, for example, where can people find you?
Vikki Ross: I’m on Twitter, @VikkiRossWrites.
Azeem Ahmad: Perfect. And I will drop that into the show notes.
Azeem Ahmad: But from me to you Vikki, thank you so much. This has been a really brilliant episode. I’ve learned a lot from you. And I’m sure when I come back to edit, and when the listeners listen to this, that they will too.
Azeem Ahmad: Thank you very much for giving me some of your time today. And thanks for being a brilliant guest.
Vikki Ross: Thank you very much.
This website uses cookies to improve your experience. While most people are OK with this, you can opt-out if you wish. Cookie settingsACCEPT
Privacy & Cookies Policy
Privacy Overview
This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Out of these cookies, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. But opting out of some of these cookies may have an effect on your browsing experience.
Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. This category only includes cookies that ensures basic functionalities and security features of the website. These cookies do not store any personal information.
Any cookies that may not be particularly necessary for the website to function and is used specifically to collect user personal data via analytics, ads, other embedded contents are termed as non-necessary cookies. It is mandatory to procure user consent prior to running these cookies on your website.
