The brilliant Vikki Ross joins me on the show to discuss why tone of voice is important in your messaging. I really enjoyed this one and learned a LOT.

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(Full transcript at bottom of page.)

Vikki has been writing copy for major global brands for 24 years. She specialises in branding and tone of voice and travels the world telling businesses how to talk. They ask her to – she doesn’t just turn up and shout through their window.

She mentors at the most-awarded ad school, School of Communication Arts 2.0. She judges at international industry award competitions. She runs copy masterclasses for D&AD and speaks at global events. On Twitter, she created #copywritersunite – a hashtag to support and celebrate copywriters.

Creative Equals named her one of the industry’s Top 30 Female Creative Leaders, The Dots named her one of the Top 100 Trailblazers redefining the creative industry and Women in Marketing gave her a Special Award for Outstanding Contribution to Marketing.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How to define what tone of voice is.
• The damage that having a wrong tone of voice can have on a brand.
• How much emphasis brands should place on tone of voice.
• The benefits of having the right tone of voice.
• What she would say to someone who feels that tone of voice isn’t a priority.
• Tips for those who want to take an inward look at their brands tone of voice in order to understand if it’s right for their customers or not.

…and more!

As always, if you enjoyed this, and previous episodes, please like, rate, share, and subscribe to the podcast – it all helps!

Useful Links:

Podcast Anchor Page: https://anchor.fm/azeemdigitalasks

My Twitter page: https://twitter.com/AzeemDigital

My website: https://www.iamazeemdigital.com/

Sign up to “The Marginalised Marketer” newsletter: https://www.iamazeemdigital.com/the-marginalised-marketer-newsletter/

Vikki’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/VikkiRossWrites

Vikki’s Article: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/bit-branding-vikki-ross

Episode Transcript:

Azeem Ahmad:
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Azeem Digital Asks Podcast. Really looking forward to this because it’s a topic that I haven’t covered in nearly 60 episodes; which is shameful of me but good for the audience, because I have got a feeling that you and me are going to learn lots. The episode topic is all about the benefits of having the right tone of voice in your messaging.

Azeem Ahmad:
I have an absolutely incredible guest, who I’ve just been picking her brains off recording, the wonderful Vikki Ross. And I’m going to steal a little bit of her bio, and then she’s going to give herself the full introduction.

Azeem Ahmad:
Vikki’s been writing copy for major global brands for 24 years. She specializes in branding and tone of voice, and travels the world telling businesses how to talk. They ask her to, she doesn’t just turn up and shout through the window.

Azeem Ahmad:
Love that. Vikki, welcome to the show.

Vikki Ross:
Hi, there. Thank you for having me.

Azeem Ahmad:
It is an absolute pleasure.

Azeem Ahmad:
So I did steal a little bit of your bio there, apologies. But for those listeners who have been living under a virtual rock, would you love to share a little bit more about yourself, please?

Vikki Ross:
Sure. I’m a copywriter. I love writing copy for brands and talking to their audience in a way that’s unique to them. Like you said, I specialize in branding and tone of voice, which means I get to go behind the scenes and find out all about a brand and then find a way for them to express themselves.

Vikki Ross:
And on top of those things, I mentor young creatives, I judge industry award competitions. And the going around the world bit, speaking at conferences, like you mentioned, that’s obviously been on hold for the last year and a half or so with the pandemic. But I’ve been busy doing virtual talks.

Vikki Ross:
And it only occurred to me this week, when I had a minute just to reflect, that I’ve done more talks and workshops this year than I have ever. And I think that’s a really good sign of the health of the industry and their interest in copywriting and branding, which I’ve often had to fight for before. So I’m really encouraged that so many people want to focus on it and just have better conversations with their audience.

Azeem Ahmad:
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. And you are incredibly busy, so I thank you very much in advance for giving me and the audience some of your time today.

Azeem Ahmad:
Let’s get right into it then. So we’re talking about the benefits of having the right tone of voice in your messaging. And I think there’s not a better place to start than the definition of tone of voice. So, Vikki, I’d love to learn from you, how would you define tone of voice?

Vikki Ross:
Well, I like to always keep things really simple and make people feel that learning what I have to say is easy. So really simply, and succinctly, a tone of voice is how a brand talks and what a brand says. But I will go into more detail to elaborate on that statement. And that is the how, the how of the tone of voice, the how a brand talks. That bit is the bit that makes a brand’s audience feel something.

Vikki Ross:
So if a brand’s tone of voice is informed the audience might feel reassured that they’re in the right place, they’re with a brand that understands their needs. So an example of that would be a bank, I guess. And if a brand’s tone of voice is cheeky, say, the audience might feel like they’re with a brand they can have fun with, like Nando’s. Nando’s, one of their tone of voice principles is cheeky. And it’s come into everyday language, people say they’re going for a cheeky Nando’s.

Vikki Ross:
A tone of voice is a brand asset. And all brand assets work together to evoke an emotion in the audience. So if a brand doesn’t make people feel anything, they’re not likely to do anything, like buy the product or click a call to action, or follow them on social, or whatever it is that the brand needs people to do.

Vikki Ross:
So that’s about the how, how the brand talks. The what bit is what the brand says. Which is slightly different to the how, it’s maybe a bit more practical and technical. But it’s the typical words and phrases that bring the how to life and reflect the category the brand is in. And it’s also the words and phrases that always connect people back to the brand; like Airbnb will always say host, Disney will always say magic, and McDonald’s will always say loving it.

Vikki Ross:
So sometimes a brand will say to me, “It’s really difficult to always be on-brand in everything that we do and say. How can we make it look like we are?” And so I advise to just use your brand words. So if you sprinkle a loving in for a McDonald’s copy, people will always think that’s McDonald’s talking, even if the rest of the copy doesn’t feel like it’s on-brand.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah, that’s brilliant. Thanks so much for sharing that, certainly got the cogs in my brain turning. Because sometimes, speaking purely as a consumer and not a marketer, you probably don’t even notice things like exactly what you’ve just said. And that’s a testament of how well that these sort of things work.

Azeem Ahmad:
And I think you touched on it in your answer there, but I’d love to learn a little bit more about, certainly, from your experience, how would having the wrong tone of voice affect a brand?

Vikki Ross:
I just want to touch on what you just said, if you don’t mind? About the consumer not noticing-

Azeem Ahmad:
Absolutely.

Vikki Ross:
… and that being a sign of a good tone of voice. You’re right, the consumer probably doesn’t notice. Or they do notice, but they don’t know what it is that they notice. They’re never going to say, “Oh, I buy Coca-Cola because I really like that the brand makes me feel happy.” But they do feel something, even if they haven’t put their finger on it and articulated it, because that’s why they return to the brand and become repeat buyers.

Vikki Ross:
But anyway, in answer to your next question: what effect does the wrong tone of voice have on a brand? Sorry, I was trying to remember how you positioned the question. I don’t think I’ve thought that a brand has the wrong tone of voice. But that’s an interesting question that I’m going to now look and reassess, are there brands that I think talk in the wrong way?

Vikki Ross:
But I have seen wrong executions though. For example, years ago, when Innocent, here in the UK, first came on the scene and spoke so differently to any other brand before. I remember Barclays Bank seemed to try giving their tone of voice a go. And they put a poster in their branch window that said, “Through these doors, walk the loveliest people in the world.” And it was so cringey because it just wasn’t how they spoke, that wasn’t in their tone of voice. So it felt really wrong.

Vikki Ross:
And the other thing that brands get wrong with tone of voice is they don’t think they need to use it everywhere. So Barclays, they stepped out of line with what their tone of voice was and adopted another one for a brief moment. But the consistency is really important. And often brands will be consistent in the big stuff, like they’ll use their tone of voice in the TV ads or on websites and in the shops at point of sale for example, but they don’t always use it in the small stuff, like text to customers or the cookies message or calls to action.

Vikki Ross:
And it’s really important for a tone of voice to be effective, that it’s used in everything, everywhere. Because that’s how a customer gets to know the brand at every touchpoint. And when a brand does get it wrong, it can make people feel uncomfortable. Because if they’re brought into a brand’s way of talking and then the brand talks differently, they might notice and they might wonder why. And then they might wonder if this is still the right brand for them.

Azeem Ahmad:
Absolutely. And I couldn’t agree with you more. I completely missed that one about Barclays. But, yeah, 100% cringe.

Azeem Ahmad:
So let’s move on then, you talking about brands and their tone of voice. So in my experience … which is far less than yours, so I’m very happy to bow down and learn more from you … when it comes to putting together campaigns and executions and stuff, tone of voice is not always top of the list, if it is even on the list at all. So how much emphasis do you think a brand should place tone of voice?

Vikki Ross:
Lots. Lots and lots and lots of emphasis. They should place the same emphasis they place on their logo, on their tone of voice. Because tone of voice is as much a brand asset as a logo. And brands use their logo everywhere, so they should use their tone of voice everywhere too. It’s what makes people recognize and remember the brand.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we touched on it earlier, but the benefits of having the right tone of voice. So you used the example of Barclays there, and it was completely a mile off. And earlier on, I mentioned about those brands who’ve got the right tone of voice. And certainly, as a consumer, I didn’t even notice that.

Azeem Ahmad:
What would you say are some of the benefits of having that right tone of voice?

Vikki Ross:
Having the right tone of voice attracts the right audience to your brand, and it sets up what the brand looks and feels like when you’re with them. And if a brand talks to their audience in a way they’ll find incredibly interesting, or even entertaining, they’re more likely to want to spend time and money with them and … think I said this before … to be a repeat part of that brand, like a customer.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah, absolutely.

Azeem Ahmad:
Okay. So these next couple of questions, I always just try to frame them with my guests in the sense of: there are people in the marketing industry who are listening to this episode and have maybe already, in 10 minutes or less, been influenced by some of the things that you’ve said. However, there are always people in the industry who are very hard and fast about, “We are always going to operate in this way.”

Azeem Ahmad:
So for those people who feel … even before the episode, and probably during, and maybe after … that tone of voice is not a priority. What would you say to those people who don’t think that tone of voice is a priority?

Vikki Ross:
I would say they don’t understand tone of voice. And, look, it’s not an unusual question, people often say this when they think they don’t have time to focus on the brand side of their brand and they just want to put a sales message out. And it doesn’t matter how it looks and feels, as long as it gets a sale.

Vikki Ross:
And they probably will get a sale. But they probably will get more sales if the message is delivered in a way that represents the brand better, because people will get more of a feel for what the brand’s offering.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. Sadly, there will still be those people, probably long after this episode is published. But, stuff them. That’s what I say.

Azeem Ahmad:
For those people then who are listening to this episode, and, in the opposite, think, “Right. Okay. We really need to take an inward look at our brand’s tone of voice,” what advice would you give to them if they wanted to take that inward look in order to understand if the tone of voice that they’re using now is right for their customers or not?

Vikki Ross:
I would advise them to have a really good chat. I’d gather as many people from around the business as possible, and advise that they ask themselves lots of questions about the brand to determine what the brand does. So what’s its product or service? Why the brand does it? And who the brand does it for? So, its audience. Who it’s talking to. And how does the brand want to make those people feel? And look at competitors and see what they’re saying and how they’re saying it.

Vikki Ross:
So by the end of all of that discussion, research, and investigating, you find a way to talk that’s incredibly interesting, like I said before, and clearly unique to your brand.

Azeem Ahmad:
Brilliant. This has been absolutely brilliant. Before we part ways, I would absolutely love to pick your brains about a couple more things.

Azeem Ahmad:
So, firstly, let’s say people get together and they are in that meeting, and they’re asked the question, “Right. We need a quick win to improve our tone of voice.” Firstly, is there such a thing as a quick win? And if there is, would you mind sharing one or two of those, please?

Vikki Ross:
I think one idea is, lots of people find it easy to adopt a tone of voice if they imagine that the brand is a person or a character. And lots of brands come with a character, or the founder has a personality that’s influenced the brand personality. So Richard Branson, for example, big and bold and flamboyant. I mean, you could describe the Virgin brand in the same way as you describe him.

Vikki Ross:
But if you’re going to create a character, then just try and make it a really rounded character. What do they do? What do they think? What do they feel? What do they typically say? What do they like? What are they interested in? It just helps you imagine who you’re writing on behalf of.

Vikki Ross:
Or you could lean on a celebrity that perhaps the company knows well that you might not have a relationship with, they’re not your mascot, but they influence how you write. So lots of brands, if they just want to be kind and friendly and warm and relatable, they might say, “Our brand is just like Holly Willoughby.” She comes up a lot as someone who we all know is just really nice and down to earth and speaks very conversationally. So it’s always good to look to somebody that can help you, if you are looking for a quick win, for how to define your tone of voice.

Azeem Ahmad:
Absolutely brilliant, as has been all of your answers.

Azeem Ahmad:
The last one I would love to learn from you on. Certainly more recently, I’ve noticed that there are people very new to the industry who’ve been listening to the podcast and picking up tips. So if there are people who are very new to the industry and want to explore this avenue, this specialism, what advice would you give to them? And where can they start? And how can they pick up and essentially become half as skilled as you?

Vikki Ross:
Find the brands that you like, as a customer, and start writing for them. A good copywriter can write about anything, with lots of research. But a really good copywriter can write better when they have a love for the brand that they’re writing for or the product that they’re writing about. So find the brands that you love and that you use and, as I said, start writing for them.

Vikki Ross:
And an easy way of getting into their tone of voice is to copy out something they’ve already written and then carry on writing. Because you’ll feel like you already write for them. And then what you carry on writing is just seamless, or it makes it easier for you to have got in the mind of the brand already.

Vikki Ross:
And then when I say start writing for them, that sounds like you’re just getting yourself the job of writing on behalf of Nike, for example. But start writing for them and then send your work to the brand and marketing people at Nike, for example, or the agency who has their account. You can find people’s contact details online so easily now. And start a relationship with those people, and you never know what might happen.

Azeem Ahmad:
Definitely. It’s quite scary when you say it like that, you can find people’s contact details online.

Vikki Ross:
I know. Yeah. I don’t mean stalking. But I think sometimes people are quite passive in looking for a job, and they’ll apply for a job to a no name no face advert. But, actually, you could just be proactive and productive and contact someone directly and be interesting and interested, and hopefully, like I said, start a relationship with them.

Azeem Ahmad:
That is an absolutely brilliant piece of advice. Thank you very much for sharing that.

Azeem Ahmad:
Sadly, Vikki, we are nearly coming to the end of the podcast. But one thing I do with all of my guests is essentially give them an open floor for them to speak about anything that we haven’t really covered yet in the episode, within reason. So if there is anything that you’d love to cover now, the virtual or audio floor is all yours.

Vikki Ross:
Aw, thank you. Well, we’re coming up to Christmas. And so every year I put out, on Twitter, a Christmas copy bingo game. If anybody would like to join in? It’s just a bit of fun, looking for all those Christmas cliches that we find in the copy.

Vikki Ross:
And I usually moan about the one phrase that we see every Christmas in everything, which is: all wrapped up. So perhaps if I can leave your listeners with anything, please don’t ever write all wrapped up. Everyone does it.

Azeem Ahmad:
Love that, free Christmas tips as well.

Azeem Ahmad:
And you mentioned your social there. Perfect way to come towards the end of the episode. If there are people listening to this who would love to connect with you and follow you on social media, for example, where can people find you?

Vikki Ross:
I’m on Twitter, @VikkiRossWrites.

Azeem Ahmad:
Perfect. And I will drop that into the show notes.

Azeem Ahmad:
But from me to you Vikki, thank you so much. This has been a really brilliant episode. I’ve learned a lot from you. And I’m sure when I come back to edit, and when the listeners listen to this, that they will too.

Azeem Ahmad:
Thank you very much for giving me some of your time today. And thanks for being a brilliant guest.

Vikki Ross:
Thank you very much.

The zestful Andrew Cock-Starkey (aka ‘Optimisey’) joins me on the podcast to discuss how to conduct organic competitor research.

Listen now, right above the subscribe button, or pick your favourite listening platform from this list:

Spotify: Click here
Apple Podcasts: Click here

Use a different listening platform? Choose it here.
(Full transcript at bottom of page.)

Andrew runs an SEO consultancy in Cambridge, and also runs a series of events for learning, networking and sharing about SEO too, as well as being hands down, one of the nicest people in this industry, who I just had to get onto the podcast to share his knowledge.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The benefits of conducting competitor research organically.
• How often he would advise people to look at their competitors organically.
• The most common mistakes he’s seen when people undertake this activity.
• For those who are new to the industry and want to start looking into this area, recommendations on where to begin.
• How to manage time and ensure that you don’t spend too much time looking into competitor performance.

…and much more!

As always, if you enjoyed this, and previous episodes, please like, rate, share, and subscribe to the podcast – it all helps!

Useful Links:

Podcast Anchor Page: https://anchor.fm/azeemdigitalasks

My Twitter page: https://twitter.com/AzeemDigital

My website: https://iamazeemdigital.com/

Sign up to “The Marginalised Marketer” newsletter: https://iamazeemdigital.com/the-marginalised-marketer-newsletter/

Andrew’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/Optimisey

Episode Transcript:

Azeem Ahmad:
Hello, and welcome back to the Azeem Digital Asks, The All-Round Digital Marketing Podcast. A brilliant episode, and a brilliant guest I have for you today. We’re talking all about conducting organic competitor research, something which I think we could all do with learning a bit more about. A brilliant guest for you, Andrew Cock-Starkey, AKA Andrew Optimisey, AKA the nicest man in this industry. Hands down. I love him, Andrew. Welcome to the show, mate.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
Thanks, Azeem, it’s an honour and a privilege to be here.

Azeem Ahmad:
I’m really looking forward to this episode, let’s just dive right in. So for those who shamefully do not know who you are. First things first, hit pause, and go on, click the link in the notes and follow him. Would you like to, obviously once you’ve done that, would you like to give yourself a proper and better introduction my friend?

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
Well, I think you summed it up neatly, in it is Andrew Cock-Starkey, AKA Andrew Optimisey, because yeah, so most people know me, who have heard of me, a few outside my household, but yeah, know me as Andrew Optimisey, because that’s the name of the consultancy that I run. I also run some SEO events, free to attend ones in Cambridge, in the UK, where I’m based, and have had some phenomenal speakers come and speak at these events. So lots of people who have also been on your show too. So yeah, lots of people have heard of the Optimisey events, but that’s, I guess, what I’m known for. So consultancy and running SEO events.

Azeem Ahmad:
And being very good at it. So let’s dive straight in, all about organic competitor research. I think the best place to start, Andrew, is the benefits of this. So what would you say the benefits are of conducting competitor research organically?

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
So I think you really need to know what kind of ballpark you’re playing in, because we’ve all had those kind of clients that turn up and go, “Oh, I want to be top of Google.” And the first question is then, “Okay, top of Google for what?” And they’re like, “Well, top of Google for, I don’t know, ‘Buy shoes in Cambridge’.” “Is that right? Great. Well, who’s currently top on the search for results when you go to, ‘Buy shoes in Cambridge?’ Oh look, it’s Amazon, and all these other huge retailers and all these … Are you really going to go and play in that playground with those kids? Or do you want to be something a little bit more niche?” So if you don’t know, it’s like going in blind. If you don’t do your organic research, and know about the SERPs, the search engine results pages that you are trying to compete in, and the keywords you’re trying to compete against, and who you are trying to compete against to get into those search results, then you’re just shooting bullets in the dark really.

Azeem Ahmad:
Love that. Reminded me of a story where I was at an agency, and I had a very niche client for industrial glue, but he was adamant, anybody who typed in, “Glue,” wanted to be number one.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
Yeah, not really … Well, it’s all those kind of things, yeah, we’ve all had those kind of clients. It’s like, “So where you want to be number one for a term,” I’m trying to think of a good example now, but where the one single word like Glue is also the name of a movie, and it’s also the name of a band, and it’s also the name of a product, and it’s also the name of a brand. Number one for “Apple,” they want “Apple.” Okay, right so Apple is fine, we all heard of iPods and all that kind of stuff, but what about the little people that sell fruits, and all those because things? And what about yeah, all those other … I’m sure there’s a band and a movie called Apple somewhere, but all those other, kind of things. You can’t just say, “Oh, I want to be number one for that,” you need to look at what’s there at the moment.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s led me nicely to my next question for you then, so how often would you advise that people look at their competitors organically?

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
Okay, so do I get penalty points for every time I say, “It depends?”

Azeem Ahmad:
It depends. No I’m joking.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
So it does depend, because it depends on what kind of markets you’re competing in. If you are in some fast-moving consumer goods, lots of retail competitors, and you’ve got the budget and the time, and you are one of the … I don’t know, your Next, who’s competing against M&S, who’s competing against Primark, who’s competing against all these other big high street retailers, then it’s probably for those big brands, it’s probably already part of their day to day. And they’re doing it every day, keeping an eye on their competitors. If you are a consultant who’s working on smaller clients, or local businesses and that kind of stuff, then you can get away with doing it less often. So I think as long as you set a cadence for it, it needs to be one of those kind of things you have in your calendar, where it’s once a month, or once every three months, once every six months, whatever it is. As long as you know then what kind of window you are looking back on.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
So it’s, “Okay, I’m going to look at my competitor’s sites. I haven’t done it for three months. So what have they done in three months?” Or I can look and I can see, “Okay. Right, well, in the last three months, their rankings went up in these areas. They produced this new content. Oh my God, they’ve got this whole new section of their website that we’ve never done anything like that before. How’s that doing for them?” All that kind of stuff. So you, yeah, as long as you’ve got a rhythm to it, then I think sticking to that rhythm is better than saying, “All right, you must diligently do it once a day,” and then you feel terrible because you didn’t.

Azeem Ahmad:
That is really useful advice. Thank you very much for sharing that. One question it made me think of, is where would you begin? Where do you start when you’re looking at competitors organically, typically, where would you start in your process?

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
So when I’m working with clients, it’s really interesting to ask them who they think their competitors are, and then looking at who Google thinks their competitors are. Because often they’re really different because everybody goes like, “All righty then, so my competitors …” It’s like when you ask the marketing team, whatever, “Who’s your target audience?” And they go, “Oh everyone. Everyone wants our product.” And it’s like, “No, not really. My mom doesn’t really want your running shoes, she’s in her ’70s, and she last went running 40 years ago.” So it’s like, “Okay, not everyone.” So yeah, of course there are, and I’m sure there’s some septuagenarians out there who are very keen runners, but you can’t say everyone. But that kind of stuff where it’s like, “Right …”

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
So when you are starting with this kind of thing, ask the clients who they think their competitors are. And that’s really useful, because then you’ve got some kind of benchmark of like, “Well, you think you’re competing against Amazon,” or Next, or Apple, or Nike, or whoever it is. And it’s like, “Okay, that’s a nice aspiration to have, but actually you are way down here, and you are competing with Dave’s Shoes on the High Street, and you are competing with all these other kind of things.” And sometimes they’ll be competing with people they won’t even have thought about, because they’re completely in this tunnel-vision of, “Apples are the fruit that you eat, and they’re green thing that you grow on trees, and you sell in your green grocers.”

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
And they might not have even realized that actually when you Google for, “Apple,” the thing that comes up, is I iPads and iPods. And they’ll be like, “Oh my goodness, I didn’t even realize that.” And it’s those kind of things, where you can open client’s eyes to, “Okay, what you think your competitors are, and who Google is putting you alongside in the search results, or who is currently ranking number one in those search results where you want to rank higher, these are the people you’re really competing against.” So that’s often a good starting point, I think.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah, brilliant. And I love that distinction that you made there between what they think and what Google thinks. I think that’s really important.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
Often terrifyingly different.

Azeem Ahmad:
So I’d love to learn more from you then, certainly in your experience, what would you say are the most common mistakes that you’ve seen when people are undertaking this type of activity?

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
I think a big mistake, that I do often see, is then people always look, and they have a particular competitor in mind. They’re like, “Oh, I want to be like,” and again, I’ve used the same examples, “I want to be like Amazon, and I want to be like Apple.” That’s great, okay. But start comparing like for like, you’re probably not going to compete against those people. But also just because you, even if your competitor, that you’ve chosen, or your client is really focused on, because they know the other person who’s a baker in their village, and they really hate that person, and they’re determined to beat them, and it’s, “Okay, well you’re getting a bit obsessive about this one person. Actually A, they’re not the person you’re competing with in the search results, and B, they’re actually in a, really different from your business.”

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
You might hate them, but they sell wedding cakes, and you sell birthday cakes, and it’s totally different. But also just because your competitor’s doing it, doesn’t mean it works. So you see this kind of thing where people go like, “Oh my goodness, our competitors brought this brand new section of their website, and they put this whole new thing in, and blah, blah, blah, and it looks really great, and it’s got whizzy things in it, and the colors go up and down and the menus all look lovely.” And actually from a search point of view and from a marketing, is it working? Because you could then just copy them exactly, word for word, what they’ve done, and it could also be, you might, unless you’ve got an insight into their finances, they might be shooting money up the wall, and be really regretting it and pulling it down as you speak, while your site is frantically trying to catch up and build exactly the same thing.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
For all you know, they’re frantically pulling it down off their website. Because it’s been an absolute car crash, and a huge waste of time and money. But, “Oh, we’ve got to copy it, because they’ve got it.” It’s this classic keeping-up-with-the-Jones’ thing. So yeah, that’s a common mistake I see. This like, “Oh my competitor’s done it. I must jump and quickly do exactly the same thing.”

Azeem Ahmad:
Solid gold content, thank you very much for sharing that. I guess now is a great time to discuss one of the features from episode sponsor SE Ranking. So their competitive research tool can help you understand which channels and keywords bring traffic to your rivals, or which products they offer that you miss. You can get a general impression of your rival’s backlink profile and dive into the history of the ads your competitors have been betting on in search. Some of the information provided by the tool includes a domains’ traffic estimate and its cost, the traffic share by a page, the keywords that every page ranks for, the keywords that are driving traffic to a website, the keyword rankings, new and lost keyword statistics, CPC, and the number of advertisers for each keyword. You can look at Google Ads marketing campaigns and the monthly ad history.

Azeem Ahmad:
So a huge thank you to them for sponsoring this episode. And if you’d like to take advantage of a 14 day-free trial and learn more, please visit the link in the show notes to get started. It’s a cool tool, I’ve used it. You should definitely check it out.

Back onto the episode. One thing that I’ve done with all of my guests, Andrew, is I’ve had people reach out to me, who are very new to the digital marketing industry, and they’ve said they would love to know what sort of first steps to take. So for those who are very new to the industry and want to start taking their first steps into competitive research, where would you recommend that they begin?

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
This is going to sound really trite, but start on Google. Everybody gets very excited about tools in SEOs. Because it’s like, “I’ve got to have this tool and this tool, and this software, and this thing.” But at the end of the day, it’s what ranks on Google, so start there, it’s seems a really obvious thing, but it’s something that lots of people really overlook, and you’ll be surprised at a number of SEOs, or people that work in SEO that don’t actually spend a lot of time in Google search results. They’re always viewing it through this lens of a tool, or another tool, or a system, or something like that.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
So go and have a look at the search results. Google around for those things that your client, or the site you’re trying to work on, that’s like, “Oh, I love to rank for …” I don’t know. So the silly example I often come back to is like, “I want to rank for cricket,” because it’s like, “All right, I’ve got a cricket kit that I want to sell.” I used to work at Lord’s Cricket Ground and we had great things around that. Obviously we were trying to rank really high for, “Cricket.” We’d rank really well for those kind of terms in certain markets. But then there were lots of people that were actually looking for the insect, crickets, to buy, to feed to their pet reptiles. You don’t want any of those. We didn’t sell insects by the box to send people to feed to their pet snake.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
So all that stuff is okay … So those kind of search results would be not quite what you thought they would be. And Google was a bit ambiguous of those things, because you can tell, because it mixes up the results. Google will put in one that’s about cricket bats, and one that’s about cricket, the sport, and one that’s about crickets, the insects, and one that’s about cricket, like firelighters, used to get little cigarette lighters. Well, there’s a brand called Cricket that make fire … And if Google doesn’t know, then that’s a big clue that actually this is probably a bit of a hot mess that you want to steer clear from. If you are selling cricket bats, then maybe go and have a look at the searches for cricket bats. And so it’s really easy thing to say, but go and look at search results and things.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
And then, start with tools, and yeah, it’s very exciting and you spend lots of money, and you can shoot your budget up the wall, buying SEO tools. But things like SE Ranking, that have free trials and stuff that you can have a go with. There’s lots of tools out there that have these free trials, give them a crack. Some of them are really expensive, but some like SE Ranking are a bit more affordable, and you can have a look at your competitors. It feels like spying and cheating in a way. If you’re brand new to this, a lot of people will ask me like, “Am I allowed to look at this kind of data on my competitor?”

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
It’s like, “Is that okay? Is that espionage or hacking or whatever?” And it’s like, “No, you’re okay. This is all publicly accessible stuff.” And you can see things, like in SE Ranking you can see what they’re spending money on, and if they’re spending money on PPC ads, to bid for those keywords, again, it doesn’t mean that it definitely is making them money. They might be wasting all their budget, but probably if they’re spending PPC money on those keywords, they’re probably worth having. If your competitors think they’re worth having, then maybe you can have a little bit of a look into it, and play around with these free trials and tools, and see where that information gets you.

Azeem Ahmad:
Brilliant. Thanks very much for sharing that. Plus one, couldn’t agree with you more. You’ve made me think of a question which I’ll come back to, but the next one that I wanted to ask you, is from what you’ve mentioned there, it’s obviously a very fine line, and a fine balance about how much time that you dedicate looking into your competitors. What dangers would you say there are? Would you say there’s a danger that you can spend too time looking to competitors, and not focusing on yourself or your clients? How do you manage that?

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
Yeah, that’s really difficult. And that’s one of the other, like your previous question about mistakes that people make. It’s another really obvious one to make. When you are looking at your competitors, and you spend all your time looking at them, then you end up almost chasing the wrong thing, because you don’t want to be same as them. If you’re always thinking, “Oh, they’ve done this and they’ve done this, and we should do that,” you are chasing them to the same point. They’re already there. If you’re looking at their site and going, “We must have that,” by the time you get there, they’ll have moved on another three steps, and you’ll always be chasing the game. So there’s always this urge to, “Oh, we must keep up with the Jones’,” is the cliche thing, but it’s like, “Don’t forget about your aims, and your business and what you are good at, your USPs.”

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
Don’t always be the same. What makes businesses stand out in everything, not just SEO, it’s that unique selling point. What’s unique about your business? How can you get to the point where your competitors are looking at you, going, “Oh, we must do what Azeem’s doing,” or, “We must do what they’re … They’re way ahead of us now. We’ve got to get that new thing.” So it can be easy to get distracted and totally bogged down in just obsessing over what your competitors are doing. So remember that kind of thing, take a step back every now and then and think, “What do our customers really want? And are we in the right place to give that to them? And how do we tell them about that?”

Azeem Ahmad:
So we’re almost at the end of the episode, but there’s one question that I’d love to ask, and learn from you about, because you’ve got a vast experience in the industry, while still managing to look younger than me, I will add. That is, what differences have you noticed throughout your career in the art of organic competitor research? So how has that changed?

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
Bless you for talking about experience, and saying how young I look, but not mentioning how old I am. So the art of organic research and stuff has changed a lot, I think. As with lots of things, it’s driven by what Google does, right? So when Google changes things, everybody jumps. It used to be that everybody would be, “Oh, I want to be top of page one,” and then that wasn’t good enough anymore, because then it was you’ve got to be position zero on page one, because you get the featured snippet result. Now there’s all these other kind of rich results and FAQs, and all these other things, these enhancements which you can get on your site’s appearance, when it appears in the search results. I think that stuff makes it really interesting, because you don’t have to be number one anymore to get those rich results.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
You can get those expanded site search links and FAQs, and all that stuff just by having useful stuff on your site. Like making good use of schema markup, and using all sorts of things like that. So even if you are competing against the really big guns, like Amazons and the Apples of this world, who’ve got, spend probably more in a couple of hours than most of us have in a budget for a year, you can still get in there, sharpen your elbows a bit, and get a really good looking search result, that appears in position three or position four, and still get an absolute boatload of traffic off the back of it. So I think those are the things which are then interesting for me around organic research and stuff.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
And I think, like with lots of it, it’s just moved on. It used to be, we’d all obsess about word counts, and, “They’ve written 500 words, so I’ve got to write 600.” And Google is getting better at discerning that stuff, and I hope that’s leading the SEO industry in that way to getting more down into the weeds of what’s the actual intent here. If the intent is to find out the time in Toronto, 600 words is probably overcooking it a bit. If the intent is to find out the ins and outs of solicitor fees in land conveyancing, then 600 words is probably nowhere near enough. So I think hopefully it’s moving the industry away from those obsessions about the wrong kind of things.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah, that’s brilliant. That’s a fantastic way to put it. I’m hopeful that people will listen to this, and take away a lot from that answer and from all of the answers that you’ve provided really, Andrew. So yeah, thanks very much for that. Just before we go, if people are listening to this and they don’t follow, or are not connected with you already-

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
They’re bad people.

Azeem Ahmad:
Where can they find out more about you? Where can they follow you?

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
I spent way too much time on Twitter. So I’m on there a lot, but pretty much everywhere, I’m Optimisey. So if you go onto Twitter and look for Optimisey, for our non-UK based friends, it’s Optimisey with an S, not a Z. So Optimisey on Twitter. You can find me on LinkedIn, I spend a fair bit of time on there too. But yeah, if you want to find all the talks from the great events stuff I did, Optimisey you on YouTube. So yeah, stick, “Optimisey,” in Google and I’ll come up.

Azeem Ahmad:
If he’s done it right.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
It’s all right, I mean I’m average at SEO. So I’ll be somewhere on page one.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yes, absolutely. Andrew, this has been brilliant. Thank you for taking some time out and sharing your knowledge, not only with me, but with the listeners. As always, I’m going to shut up now, and let you have the final word on your episode.

Andrew Cock-Starkey (‘Optimisey’):
It’s been an absolute pleasure to speak to you, Azeem. You are a marvellous professional at this sort of thing. So it’s just like having a chat with a good friend. So I hope if this is moderately useful to anyone, that would be great. The only thing I would say, is if you’re listening to this thinking, “Oh my gosh, there’s so much, and it’s all so intimidating,” if you can do one thing to make your site better, just this week or this month, then you’re moving forward, and that’s great. So just take one thing out of this, and try and make your stuff better and you’ll get there.

The awesome Amanda Milligan joins me on the show to discuss how to build authority in digital marketing.

Listen now, right above the subscribe button, or pick your favourite listening platform from this list:

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(Full transcript at bottom of page.)

Amanda Milligan is the Head of Marketing at Stacker, a data journalism platform and newswire that also partners with brands to create and distribute content to build brand awareness and links. With a degree in journalism and a decade in content marketing, she’s spent her career helping brands harness the intersection of content and SEO. Her expertise has been published in Entrepreneur, Forbes, TechCrunch, Search Engine Land, Moz, The Next Web, and more, and she’s spoken at industry-leading events, including SMX, MozCon, BrightonSEO, and Pubcon.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How to define authority
• What makes a brand authoritative
• The value there is in brands seeking to build/grow their authority
• The common mistakes people make when going through this authority building process
• How brands with more authority stand out from those who don’t
• What response she would give to a C-suite/senior manager who isn’t interested in building authority

…and much more!

Useful Links:

Podcast Anchor Page: https://anchor.fm/azeemdigitalasks

My Twitter page: https://twitter.com/AzeemDigital

My website: https://iamazeemdigital.com/

Sign up to “The Marginalised Marketer” newsletter: https://iamazeemdigital.com/the-marginalised-marketer-newsletter/

Amanda’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/millanda

Episode Transcript:

Azeem Ahmad:
Hello, and welcome back to the Azeem Digital Asks podcast. A brilliant episode I’ve got for you today, an absolutely brilliant guest, someone who is probably right up there at the top of my list of people who I would love to bump into at a conference, and just pick their brains, the absolutely awesome Amanda Milligan.

Azeem Ahmad:
We’re talking all about, how to build authority in digital marketing. Amanda, welcome to the show.

Amanda Milligan:
Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here, and honestly, every time we chat, it’s just a delight. So thank you.

Azeem Ahmad:
Ah, that’s made my day. Thank you so much. You are an absolute legend. For those who shamefully do not know who you are, and what an awesome person you are, would you love to give a little intro to yourself?

Amanda Milligan:
Sure, yeah. I’m the head of marketing at Stacker, and stacker is a news wire, essentially. It’s like digital journalism news wire.

Amanda Milligan:
So when you think of the AP for breaking news, or Reuters for financial news, it’s that for digital journalism, which is really cool, or data journalism … I don’t know why I said there’s digital journalism.

Amanda Milligan:
Data journalism, which was awesome when I discovered what they do, because I had no idea this model existed. And my background has been in a lot of data journalism, when I was back at Fractal and other marketing stuff that I’ve done, a lot of content marketing, digital PR work.

Amanda Milligan:
So they have started about a year ago. They work with brands now, and brands will underwrite content, and get the benefit of authority, as we’ll talk about today, in addition to canonicals and backlinks, and all that fun stuff.

Amanda Milligan:
A lot of what I’ve done is in the authority realm, through content. I’ve been in this industry for about a decade, and I love talking about it. Hopefully, we can keep me to the 20-minute time slot, so you don’t think I am totally rogue.

Azeem Ahmad:
Awesome. Right. As I mentioned, the episode is all about how to build authority in digital marketing. I think the best place to start, really, is how would you define authority?

Amanda Milligan:
Sure. I mean, in the most fundamental way, I just think of it as knowing what you’re talking about, and coming across that way. So literally, demonstrating your expertise in a topic, right? That’s what it comes down to.

Amanda Milligan:
I think we’ll talk a little bit about this more, and we’ll dive into it now, but I think a mistake a lot of people make is, most companies have so much expertise internally, and they’re not doing everything they can, to showcase that through marketing. It’s just, they have it, but they’re not harnessing it in any way, people don’t realize, and they try in sales to overcompensate for it.

Amanda Milligan:
But there’s so much you can do in marketing to tell that story, and show know that there are people here who know what they’re doing, and they know how to fix your problems. We’re just not explaining it very well.

Azeem Ahmad:
Love that. I also love the fact that you are such an excellent marketer, that in that answer there, you’ve already given a hook for people to carry on listening to the rest of the show. So, fantastic.

Azeem Ahmad:
Let’s move on. What do you think makes a brand authoritative? What makes a brand authoritative for you?

Amanda Milligan:
Sure. I think there’s a lot of answers to this question, and that’s the fun of the marketing side, because there’s so many different ways that you can demonstrate authority.

Amanda Milligan:
For example, perhaps the founder or somebody else at the organization is very public facing, and they share a lot about their perspective. We see this in the marketing industry all the time, right?

Amanda Milligan:
I mean, brand is the reason why a lot of people trusted Moz in the first place. But there’s so many agencies, there’s so many companies where people really respect the founders, or the head of marketing, or whatever it is.

Amanda Milligan:
So that’s a way to be authoritative, is doing it through your people, the people who know what they’re talking about, getting them front and center, and allowing them to communicate out to the public. That’s one way your brand could look authoritative.

Amanda Milligan:
Another way is to create your onsite content in a way that it’s solving people’s problem. I mean, this is On-site Content 101, answering questions, the keyword research that helps you decide what people need help with.

Amanda Milligan:
But if somebody’s turning to you, if they have a question or a problem, or even a curiosity, and they’re landing on your page, and thinking, “That answers my question. This site, this brand, this person understands what I was going for, and they had the answer.” That’s a way to build authority and show that, you know what you’re talking about.

Amanda Milligan:
Or even just, when you create content like that, ranking for it. Because then you’re getting the signal that other people have found this useful, and Google agrees that this is probably the best resource for what I’m looking for.

Amanda Milligan:
So that’s a lot of reason why, obviously, organic traffic is the reason why people want to rank. But it’s also an authority signal, and I think people overlook that a lot. Just seeing that brand name at the top of the surfs says something pretty huge.

Amanda Milligan:
Then there’s the stuff, the industry section that I’ve worked in a lot, which is the PR, the media side. Brands want to be mentioned by authoritative sources, and this is where it’s good to think, “Okay, I can build my own authority, but I can also associate and be trusted by other authorities. That helps amplify my own.”

Amanda Milligan:
If you’re getting mentioned in the news, that means that those respected publications are trusting what you have to say, or you do something co-branded with another brand that people really trust, or get another, an influencer. So many different ways to get at demonstrating your authority, but it’s important to make sure you’re tackling it from a few different ways, just to increase the chances that people can access this. You might not be reaching a wide enough audience with these demonstrations of your authority.

Azeem Ahmad:
There’s so much to unpack there, but a lot of it you mentioned was about building and growing your authorities, and naturally, that’s where I’m going to go into. What value is there in brands that are seeking to build or grow their authority?

Amanda Milligan:
Sure. There’s two perspectives for this. There’s the perspective of the users or the potential clients and customers, right?

Amanda Milligan:
If you were to give them two brands to choose from, and they hadn’t heard of one and the other one, they’re like, “Oh, I know that founder. I’ve seen their stuff.” Or, “Oh, I’ve read their blog, and I trust what they have to say, and it’s helped me.”

Amanda Milligan:
Authority is not tangible in a lot of ways, but it will definitely make an impact on decision making. That’s why concept marketers always struggle with this.

Amanda Milligan:
It’s being able to measure the impact of certain things, awareness authority being two of the major components that is really hard to explain the full impact of. But authority is certainly one of those things that just permeates into every single thing that you do, in marketing, in sales, pretty much in every stage, even when you’re already engaging with somebody.

Amanda Milligan:
So you think about it from that perspective. But there’s also the more SEO focused, Google perspective of authority. We know EAT. I’m not going to get into the whole debate of whether that’s a ranking signal or not, but just, authority does matter, regardless of exactly how Google’s implementing it.

Amanda Milligan:
Obviously, if Google’s trying to rank, what’s going to be the best answer to something. If they have two articles that are not exactly the same, but just as valuable as each other, “Oh, these are both good,” let’s go with the one where we already know this site has proven that they’re authoritative.

Amanda Milligan:
It’s just a better bet, right? So Google determines authority, and whether it’s just the content itself, but also links. That’s why that comes up a lot, because you’re trying to prove, “No, it’s not just us saying that we’re good. Other people are confirming that we know what we’re saying, and that we can be trusted.”

Amanda Milligan:
So I think you come at it from both of those perspectives. It’s not just the search engines, it’s also the user experience. An authority can influence so many things from both sides of that coin.

Azeem Ahmad:
Again, I’ve got so many more questions to ask, I’m probably going to have to get you back, and just do a whole other episode.

Azeem Ahmad:
This is, honestly, really, really fascinating. Thank you for sharing this. Things that are just ticking through in my head now. I need to write them down for sure.

Azeem Ahmad:
So there’s a lot out there about building and growing authority, like you mentioned, both from a user’s point of view. But also, for example, from a search engine’s point of view as well.

Azeem Ahmad:
One of the things that I’d love to cover off and learn from you is, trying to avoid that the most common pitfalls, or what do you think are the most common mistakes that people make when they’re going through this process?

Amanda Milligan:
Yeah. So I alluded to this little earlier, where people aren’t really doing a good enough job reaching a wide enough audience with this authoritative information. And I think a good way to think about it is applying authority to every aspect of the marketing funnel.

Amanda Milligan:
I think where a lot of people start, and this makes total sense, and they should, is the bottom of the funnel. So, “Okay, let’s make sure we have case studies and testimonials, and explanations of our product or service,” or whatever it is.

Amanda Milligan:
You definitely want to have all of that foundation set up, and make sure that you can tell that authoritative story when someone’s ready to buy, obviously. But I think a lot of people stop there.

Amanda Milligan:
And I think that’s a shame, because you’re working harder and hard and harder in your other marketing tactics, to get people to that point, where now they trust you. Get them trusting you way sooner, and the process gets much easier, right?

Amanda Milligan:
Literally, if you sit there and you map out, “Okay, how are all the ways we’re building authority? And are they all at the bottom of the funnel? Is there other stuff we can be doing?” Top of the funnel is where you get into, “Maybe this is more tangential,” and this is what I talk about all the time, tangential content, so stuff that’s not directly tied to your brand offering.

Amanda Milligan:
It’s not directly about your products or your service, but it’s about something that is still relevant to your target audience, and perhaps even a wider audience, so that other people, it’ll rank for higher volume terms, it’ll be covered in the media, because a wider audience cares.

Amanda Milligan:
Whatever it is, you’re reaching a wider audience. You’re building other authority signals that’ll help get people into the funnel, to then understand exactly how authoritative you are in your niche.

Amanda Milligan:
But overlooking that, I think, is something that’s very commonly done, and people are afraid to deviate too much from their core branding, and I understand that. It’s not always intuitive to be like, “Let’s spend money to talk about something that’s not going to convert immediately, or lead to sales.”

Amanda Milligan:
But when you build that authority up top, the sale of everything else is so much faster. If someone’s like, “I’ve been reading your stuff for a year,” that is a much easier conversion to get, than somebody who’s just heard about you for the first time, and they’re reading a case setting.

Amanda Milligan:
They’re like, “Yeah, I think this is cool, but I don’t know. I don’t have a foundation in trusting this brand.”

Azeem Ahmad:
I love this. That’s made me think of a question, but I’m going to come to it later on, and I definitely won’t forget it, because it’s something I’d love to learn from you.

Azeem Ahmad:
Really, really insightful. I can’t believe, what, 11 minutes, and this is just like solid gold. You’re making a case for me to make my future podcasts shorter and shorter, because this is too broad there.

Azeem Ahmad:
Let’s talk about separating yourself from the competition. How do brands with more authority stand out from those who don’t?

Amanda Milligan:
Yeah. I don’t know if this even exactly answers your question, but I think that a lot of companies have to have a moment of self-reflection, of how they actually are different from their competitors, and what their unique expertise is in.

Amanda Milligan:
That’s more of a branding exercise, really. I mean, you have to know the answer to this in order to do the rest of it right. And as a marketer, it will be a little bit of wrangling, maybe, with partners or leadership, or whomever it is, to pick their brains and be like, “What actually makes us different, even outside of just the product or service? What about us and our internal company knowledge is going to be really useful to people? What do we uniquely know?”

Amanda Milligan:
And people who are able to harness that really well, and it’s relevant to what they’re offering, that stands out. Because they’re showing that it’s different.

Amanda Milligan:
It’s like, their particular perspective is different from everything else in the same industry. If you’re too generic, if you’re publishing the same stuff everyone else is publishing, because you’re trying to rank for the same things, but you’re not doing anything particularly interesting, it’s harder to build authority that way, anyway.

Amanda Milligan:
You have more competition. This aligns with the arguments for long tail keywords, even though they’re not as high volume, but at least you’re different, and you’re honing in on the people who really care. But I think that that’s fundamentally what you have to do, because those companies that excel at it do get a lot, all the attention.

Amanda Milligan:
They’re the ones who people understand. Not only do they trust what they’re saying over time, but they get the brand. It’s just, it’s like the branding’s packed into this whole effort. That’s why there’s so much benefit, really.

Amanda Milligan:
Authority is not just a marketing play. It’s a branding thing. Like I said, I mentioned sales already, it can affect so many aspects of a business, but it does that kind of moment where everybody sits down, and they all agree, “This is who we are as a company.”

Amanda Milligan:
I think that is something that’s hard to do sometimes, “Oh, we have this product and it’s cool, and we know that people like it when they use it, but what is actually different about us?” So I think that’s like, when brands get that right, those are the ones that stand out the most.

Azeem Ahmad:
With that, you’ve led me perfectly to the question that I wanted to ask you was literally about, selling this in, or selling this upwards. As you mentioned there, getting everybody around the figurative table, to agree.

Azeem Ahmad:
Let’s talk about the C-suite or senior leadership, for example, who aren’t interested in building authority, literally, those types of people who stereotypically say, “Did we sell more of the product X, did we get more leads? So none of this about authority.” What response would you give to somebody who really isn’t interested in building their authority?

Amanda Milligan:
That’s a great question. It’s kind of my favorite question, because I feel like, it’s the most common thing ever in our industry, to struggle with that part.

Amanda Milligan:
We all know why this stuff matters, at least on a basic level. Implementation’s the hard part, but even harder is just getting the buy-in to implement, right?

Amanda Milligan:
I think one of the solutions is just literally not to even frame it with authority, when you go with that high up. We know, we can talk about it now, authority is an aspect of it, but you’re absolutely right.

Amanda Milligan:
We’re drawing those conclusions, like yes, it is more intangible than other things. However, if you can get buy-in to at least do one post, or … I heard a lot of people when I had the podcast that you were on, that was awesome.

Amanda Milligan:
A lot of people came on and said, because I would ask them the same question, and a lot of people said, “Just get buy-in for a trial, call it a trial or a test.”

Amanda Milligan:
Okay, so you do that part and show, “Listen, I’m talking about authority, but I’m actually talking about, ‘This is what it tangibly looks like. It looks like this post, or it looks like this study that we did. And this is the result of that.'”

Amanda Milligan:
The results of that are what they’re going to care about. Either you run the test, or you pull it from a competitor that’s doing something very similar. That’s always the easiest way, if you can activate their jealousy, that a competitor’s doing something very similar.

Amanda Milligan:
But then, like you mentioned, how is this ranking? How is this driving links that are benefiting other parts of the site? Tying it to the things that you know that person cares about is still going to be the most important thing. The authority building is a vehicle to get to those places.

Amanda Milligan:
It’s only if you’re trying to get buy-in for authority, if you know you’re doing it, the more nebulous, “We just want to be more well known,” it’s still good to tie those to something, if it’s search, like I said, the keywords and the links work.

Amanda Milligan:
But if it’s something else, if it’s branding … Again, pull the competitors. Do they have a founder who’s all over the place and Super Bowl respected, what is their brand search like?

Amanda Milligan:
You want to pull all of whatever metrics you can to ~prove, “Listen, we’re not being talked about enough. We’re not being linked to organically enough, just naturally. People don’t know who we are. Or they don’t know what they’d answer to this question.

Amanda Milligan:
What could we do to become the go-to source? I don’t know, does that answer your question? I kind of went off in a few tangents.

Azeem Ahmad:
Literally, my brain is going 100 mph here. Sadly, we are coming towards the end of the podcast. However, I can’t let you go without asking you a couple more questions.

Azeem Ahmad:
This one’s sort of off the cuff, really. Recently, more and more people who are new to marketing digital marketing in general, have reached out to me and told me that they had been listening to the podcast.

Azeem Ahmad:
One question that I’ve been adding in to all of my guests is basically this. Let’s say somebody brand new to the industry is listening to the almost 20 minutes of absolute knowledge bombs that you have shared today.

Azeem Ahmad:
Now their brain is full, completely new to the industry. This is a brand new topic to them. Where would you advise that they begin to approach this topic?

Azeem Ahmad:
Because there’s so many different areas or facets you can sort of get into. But for somebody brand new, Amanda, what would you recommend? Or where would you recommend that they start?

Amanda Milligan:
Yeah, this is honestly, we talked about how one of the hardest things is getting buy-in, the second hardest thing is prioritization. So I totally understand.

Amanda Milligan:
If you feel that way, that is not an uncommon feeling. I feel that way, every time I go to a conference, it’s, “Cool. That was a lot. Now I don’t know how to follow up on all of that.”

Amanda Milligan:
I think the first thing you do is take a look at what you’re already doing, and say, “What applies here, and what’s already working? And how can I keep doing that?”

Amanda Milligan:
That’s always the easiest thing to do, and it’s also just the most sensible thing to do. You’re already identifying what works, you might as well invest a little more.

Amanda Milligan:
Then if you want to trying to explore more, like I mentioned the funnel, if you’re like, “Okay, I am that person who hasn’t really done any authority building outside of the bottom of the funnel,” then take that moment to say, “What do we, what can we uniquely offer? What information can we put together, that’s going to be authoritative, and useful to our audience?”

Amanda Milligan:
And pick one thing, just start at one place. Maybe there’s a question you’ve always wanted to answer with a survey, and you think that people are going to find it fascinating. Try that, and then don’t get caught up in the million of other things.

Amanda Milligan:
Don’t start using six new marketing channels, just to get out there as much as you can. Pick that one thing that you think you’re going to get buy-in for, that people are going to be interested in, and use that as your stepping stone into all these other initiatives.

Azeem Ahmad:
Amazing, much like everything that you’ve said in this episode and shared. This has been absolutely brilliant. I can’t let you go, firstly, without thanking you for being an awesome guest, which I will do again, before I press Stop Recording.

Azeem Ahmad:
But most importantly, if anybody’s listened to this, would love to find out more about you, or connect with you, or follow you. How can they do that?

Amanda Milligan:
Sure. I’m on LinkedIn and Twitter. The most, definitely Twitter, and love/hate relationship over there. Twitter, I’m @millanda, M-I-L-L-A-N-D-A.

Amanda Milligan:
But please feel free to e-mail me, if you have follow-up questions, you want to talk about any of this? I’m not kidding, I can talk about this all day.

Amanda Milligan:
My e-mail is a amilligan@stacker.com. So shoot me an e-mail, say you heard me on the show, and you had, you wanted to follow up about something, and I’m happy to talk about it.

Amanda Milligan:
Or DM me on Twitter, or whatever it is. I’m happy to help. And thank you so much for having me, truly.

Azeem Ahmad:
The guests can’t see, but I’m doing a hand on heart thing. Honestly, this has been brilliant. Thank you so much.

Azeem Ahmad:
I’ll make sure to share your social handle and your e-mail address in the show notes, but that is pretty much it. All it’s left to say is, this has been absolutely brilliant, so much knowledge dropped in 20 minutes or so.

Azeem Ahmad:
I cannot thank you enough for being an absolutely awesome. This is where I shut up. The final word on your episode goes to you, so take it away.

Amanda Milligan:
Well, thank you, Azeem, you’re wonderful. Thank you for everything that you do for the industry. I just want to shout you out to end this episode, and thank you all for listening.

The brilliant Jessica Pardoe joins me on the show to discuss how best newcomers can start their marketing career, and how to avoid burnout too – as well as a few more tips thrown in!

Listen now, right above the subscribe button, or pick your favourite listening platform from this list:

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(Full transcript at bottom of page.)

Jessica is a PR Account Manager at Source PR in Cheshire, and you’ll regularly find her on social media sharing her knowledge, and helping others.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Thinking of her own career, what the one thing is that she wishes she could go back and do differently when she started.
• What she thinks some of the common misconceptions are that people have when starting their marketing careers.
• One piece of advice she could give someone who is brand new to the industry.
• Tips for newcomers to the industry who are often keen to progress quickly and preventing overwork.
• What people can do to prevent burnout.
• How has the pandemic changed PR?
• Advice from Jess on how to settle into a new job when on-boarding is purely remote.

…and much more!

Useful Links:

Episode sponsored by Absolute Digital, check them out here: https://absolute.digital/

Podcast Anchor Page: https://anchor.fm/azeemdigitalasks

My Twitter page: https://twitter.com/AzeemDigital

My website: https://iamazeemdigital.com/

Sign up to “The Marginalised Marketer” newsletter: https://iamazeemdigital.com/the-marginalised-marketer-newsletter/

Jessica Twitter: https://twitter.com/jessicapardoePR

Episode Transcript:

Azeem Ahmad:
Hello. And welcome back to another episode of the Azeem Digital Asks podcast. Super excited. I have a brilliant guest with me today and she’s making her podcasting debut. So please listen to this episode. And when you finished, rewind it back to start and listen to it again 10 times, because she’ll love that. We’re talking all about starting your marketing career the right way and avoiding burnout with Jessica Pardoe.

Azeem Ahmad:
Before we begin, a quick word from the sponsor. This episode is sponsored by Absolute Digital media, a leading UK based digital marketing agency, specializing in search paper click and digital PR. With seven award wins under their belt already this year, they understand what it takes to make a business stand out from its competitors and generate greater visibility in return. Check them out. And I will drop a link to them in the show notes. Right, Jessica, welcome to the show.

Jessica Pardoe:
Hello. Thank you.

Azeem Ahmad:
How are you doing?

Jessica Pardoe:
I’m okay. Thank you. Yeah. Good.

Azeem Ahmad:
I’m very excited to be able to facilitate your podcasting debut. I’m excited to learn more from you. So let’s start right from the very beginning and give the listeners an introduction to yourself.

Jessica Pardoe:
Okay. Hello, I’m Jess. And I’m an account manager at Source PR, which is a lovely little PR and social media agency just based down in Cheshire.

Azeem Ahmad:
Awesome. Right. So we’re talking all about how you can start your marketing career the right way and how to avoid burnout. So let’s start from the very beginning then, Jessica. Do you prefer Jessica or do you prefer Jess?

Jessica Pardoe:
Either’s fine. But normally Jess.

Azeem Ahmad:
Okay. I’ll go with Jess. So Jess, thinking of your own career, what is one thing you wish you could go back and do differently when you started?

Jessica Pardoe:
I think if I was to say one thing, it would definitely be to look out for any red flags very much at the beginning of my career. It’s something I actually wrote about recently on my blog and it seemed to resonate with quite a lot of people. I wish that at the time I was better educated on them and that’s something that I am trying to help people with now too. And I say this because I had a bit of a bumpy start to my career with a few knocks to my confidence, unfortunately.

Jessica Pardoe:
And I think looking back, I wish that I’d just had ample training from the get go that could have helped me identify things that were potentially wrong and the things where I should have been getting help where I wasn’t. I don’t necessarily regret anything in my career, because I do think that you shouldn’t ever have any solid regrets. And ultimately, all of my experience has led me to where I am today. But I think if I could do things differently, I’d have done research into the industry a little bit more and knowing kind of what makes a good and bad employer from the beginning.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah. That’s brilliant. I couldn’t agree with you any more. I’d love to dig into that a little bit further then. So you mentioned it briefly there, but what would you say are some of the most common misconceptions that people have when they start their marketing careers?

Jessica Pardoe:
Well, I don’t know if this is just me thinking of my own career, my own experiences, but there seems to be a misconception that those starting out should know what to do straight away. I mean, certainly people I’ve spoken to privately on Twitter seem to have been thrown in very much to deep ends in their first roles in the industry.

Jessica Pardoe:
But in reality, PR isn’t really taught in schools and in universities, and definitely digital PR isn’t. So I think that some form of training should come a standard for all graduates and anyone coming into junior careers in marketing. I mean, even in other disciplines, such as general marketing. Although it’s as subject that a lot do study at university, that doesn’t mean that they’re going to come into a role straight away and exactly know how things work.

Jessica Pardoe:
The industry changes so often that really we need to nip that misconception in the bud right away and make sure that new starters are settled into their roles with the right support. As like I mentioned, things do change so often in marketing, in PR and SEO and all those other industries, I think we need to stop assuming that graduates are going to be able to come into a role and be able to do it from the get go. And I think that’s where a lot of problems can arise very early on.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah. Again, the listeners can’t see, but I’m nodding my head away. A lot of what you’re saying is resonating massively. Thank you for sharing. I’m temporarily going to side step and ask you a question that I haven’t prepared you for. Sorry.

Jessica Pardoe:
Okay.

Azeem Ahmad:
How much of that, so you mentioned there about people starting jobs, their first jobs, being expected to basically hit the ground running, how much of that do you think lies in the job descriptions that people see before they apply? Do you think the job descriptions are incorrect or correct and there’s misconceptions? How much of it do you think lies there?

Jessica Pardoe:
I think that with job descriptions, a lot of them are very detailed. And as a graduate and just speaking from experiences myself, I was willing to just kind of go into anything to get that experience that I knew I needed, because there’s always that real struggle of getting that experience under your belt initially, because a lot of places do want experience. So job descriptions themselves, they can be quite difficult to navigate and to know what you’re going into. Because often, and especially marketing, they have a lot of different responsibilities.

Jessica Pardoe:
But I think again, speaking from personal experience and what happened to me in my career, it would’ve been great to have initial training, even though that isn’t particularly specified. Because like I say, you can’t expect somebody to walk into a graduate role and know exactly what to do. Even though they might have applied for a role that says you need to be able to do this and that, I think if you’re applying for a junior role or something that’s postgraduate, there is a certain level of expectation there that you would be showing how to do that. And it wouldn’t be assumed that you’d know how to do it straight away, because that’s just simply not the case. You’ve just come out of university and you’re not going to know how to do certain things. That’s just the standard.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah. Another fantastic answer. I’m really glad this conversation is happening. So thank you again for sharing that. I think that leads me quite nicely onto my next question for you then. So if there was one piece of advice that you could give to somebody who is brand new to the industry or who is about to take their first steps into the industry, what would that be?

Jessica Pardoe:
I would say definitely, definitely, definitely do your research and make sure that you’re committing to a role that will treat you fairly and that holds all the right progression and training opportunities in place. I think as we’re beginning to speak about this a little bit more and certainly over the past year or so, I’ve really noticed that employers are beginning to talk more about what they’re doing for their employees mental health and how they’re training good people and offering ongoing training as well, which is really, really important because the industry is always changing.

Jessica Pardoe:
So I would say definitely, definitely do research and look out for that. And remember that your notice period as well is just as much for you as it is for your employer. So if you are on a three month probation, for example, that gives you ample time to make sure that you’re in the right role before you commit to anything long term. And I think that’s really important for new graduates and people who are just starting out in the industry to know.

Azeem Ahmad:
Oh, this is 24 carat solid gold. This is brilliant. Thanks for sharing. So let’s move on and let’s talk about burnout and using newcomers as an example. So certainly in my experience, what I’ve seen is that many newcomers to the industry, pandemic aside for a moment, they’re quite keen to progress really quickly. And some will even overwork, which does often lead to burnout. So in terms of time management, what advice would you give to somebody in new to the industry in how best to manage their time?

Jessica Pardoe:
Let me just start by saying that I totally get that. And I totally get wanting to get ahead in your career. I’ve very much been like that myself. But what I would say is you don’t want to start off on the wrong foot. So if you start off by overworking yourself, coming in early, leaving late, that’s very much showing that that will be expected from you moving forward. And as you kind of get into your career a little bit more, if you’re staying at the same place, you’re going to realize that you don’t want that to become the norm for you.

Jessica Pardoe:
But to go back to your question, I would a hundred percent say, learn how to switch off. I would never endorse having your work emails or Slack on your personal phone, because I think you need that down time to think about personal life. And spend time with your friends and family as well, which is really important for mental health. But one thing I do always think, and this might be a little bit controversial, but here we go, is that if you’re having to work late every night, then you’re either not good at managing your time or you’re being given too much to do. And often with people who are new into the industry, it’s often the latter.

Jessica Pardoe:
So both of those are fundamental problems and something that should be nipped in the bud. And it is the responsibility of your employer or your manager to identify that and to help you so you don’t feel that pressure to be starting early and working late. Nobody should have to do that, despite what the PR industry might have you believe. So if you’re finding that’s the case, I would definitely advise reaching out to someone within your place of work or indeed someone without… Outside of your work as well. My DMS are always open to anyone who thinks their situation might not be quite right and wants to talk to somebody about it. But I would always advise reaching out to somebody if you feel that something’s not right.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah. Again, I find myself agreeing furiously. Absolutely brilliant. I wanted to pick on something that you just said there. Pick on is probably the wrong phrase, but one of the things you mentioned there was either not managing time correctly or being given too much work to do.

Jessica Pardoe:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Azeem Ahmad:
So like I just said, complete agree. I definitely think it falls on either side of that fence. Speaking of the latter, if a newcomer to the industry, keen to impress, but has a lot of work on their plate, recognizes that they’ve got a lot of work. How do advise they bring that up with the people that they report into in a professional way, rather than just saying, “Oh, I haven’t hit this deadline because I’ve got too much work to do.” What’s the best way that somebody can approach that?

Jessica Pardoe:
Look, I don’t think it’s an easy thing. I’ll just say that from the start. I think it’s very difficult, especially if you’re new into a company. You have to expect that it’s not going to be easy to say, “Look, I think I’m doing too much or I’ve not got enough time to do what you’re asking me to do.” But I would say speak to someone you trust. And that might not be your direct manager, it might perhaps be the managing director or even somebody from another department. And I would say, “This is my experience. And I’m finding it quite difficult. Is there anything that you can advise?”

Jessica Pardoe:
You might not feel comfortable going straight to your boss straight away, because that might not be easy for you. But I would say talk to somebody. And as a manager myself as well, I would really appreciate honesty from my execs. If they are struggling to get things done, then the best thing that they can do is let me know about it. Because often it will just be the case that perhaps they’ve got a little bit too much on their plate or that things are taking longer than we initially thought. And that’s not a problem and that’s definitely not on them, but it’s something that we should look to nip in the bud straight away.

Jessica Pardoe:
So I would say talk to somebody that you trust. If you’re really finding it difficult to talk to someone within your agency, perhaps reach out to anyone else within the industry and ask if they’ve had similar experiences. And they might be able to help as well. But either way, I would say definitely talk to someone, nip it in the bud as soon as you can, and make sure that your problems are heard straight away, because your managers will normally appreciate that as well.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yes, absolutely. Open lines of communication are key. Thanks for sharing that. Let’s look at the other side of the fence then, working too hard leading into burnout. How would you suggest that people prevent this, especially when they’re starting out?

Jessica Pardoe:
Well, like I said, I’d say a thousand percent create that separation between your work life and your personal life. One of the big things for me is not having emails on your phone and that kind of thing. No Slack, no emails, not even talking about work outside of working hours. I think that’s really important because it helps create that switch off and it helps you to have time to think about anything but work. And that creates a really good balance in your life.

Jessica Pardoe:
I’d also say that if you are feeling burnt out, then like I say, talk to a manager about it because they might not even know. And from experience, talking about these things definitely does help. So yeah, I’d say my two top things would be making sure that you keep your work life separate so that you have time to switch off and talking to people. And like I say, maybe even people outside of your workplace. And my DMs are absolutely always open for anybody who wants to talk about such things.

Azeem Ahmad:
Brilliant. Thank you for sharing. And if you’re listen to this, I strongly suggest that you take Jess up on that offer and reach out to her. Being as we’ve got time, I want to pick your brains about a couple more things. I’m enjoying putting you on the spot, because I’m really enjoying this episode. You mentioned earlier on about the pandemic changing PR.

Jessica Pardoe:
Yes.

Azeem Ahmad:
What did you mean by that?

Jessica Pardoe:
I think that probably the biggest thing that the pandemic has changed, and everyone will be able to resonate with this, is everyone going to working from home. That required a lot of trust from our employees. And it also required us to give ourselves better work life balance because it’s so easy to start work early and finish late when your work is at home, where you are spending the most time. So I think from the pandemic, it’s been really important to learn how to combat that and how to create a good separation, whether that’s actively putting away your things at the end of the night or whether it’s having, if you’re fortunate enough to have an office, closing the door on that office and then not worrying about it for the rest of the night.

Jessica Pardoe:
And I’m not saying as well that you should feel worried about your job or that it should be bringing you stress outside of work. What I am saying is that it’s really important not to think about work all the time, because then it’ll consume you. And this is coming from someone who absolutely loves their job. I love what I do and I feel happy every day at work. But if I think about work all the time, then there’s every chance that I will start to stop enjoying it in the way that I do. So I think that’s really important.

Jessica Pardoe:
And as more of us continue to work from home, even post lockdown and that kind of thing, I think it’s really important to just keep on creating that separation and just acknowledging the change as well. The pandemic has changed PR, it has changed the way that we work and it has changed the way that we do things. So I think understanding that and giving yourself some slack and learning how to navigate. And I hate the phrase, but the new normal is really important. And I think that’s something to bear in mind.

Azeem Ahmad:
Brilliant. Yeah. And I presume when you say, give yourself some slack, you do not mean the conversational chat app, of course.

Azeem Ahmad:
The last thing I wanted to ask you then before I let you go, because sadly we are coming towards the end of the episode. This is something selfishly that I would love to learn more from you about because for context, during the pandemic, I move jobs. And I’m very much a people person so I enjoy the fact that if I was starting a new job, for example, traditionally, I’d be setting a meeting room, having an induction, blah, blah. However, all of my onboarding was remote.

Azeem Ahmad:
I imagine as things are now, things aren’t looking good from a pandemic point of view, let’s say devil’s advocate. And I hate that phrase, but things worsen again, people have to stick to remote working to keep everybody safe. Somebody’s starting in the industry brand new and is starting remotely. So all of the introductions and learning is going to behind 13, 14 inch laptop screen. What advice would you give to somebody in how best to navigate their first steps into the industry from behind a computer screen?

Jessica Pardoe:
I think that, and I hate to use the phrase “It depends,” because it’s so cliche. But it really does depend on how you feel about the virtual learning and virtual working as to how you would kind of deal with that. But for me, I personally do, I am the same as you. I like to be in the office. I like to have connections with my colleagues and chat and be able to catch up. And I remember reading something that Zoom in particular can be quite difficult for our mental health, because it’s really hard to read body language over a screen.

Jessica Pardoe:
So I think taking things like that into account and perhaps looking at varying up the ways that you communicate with your team, especially as you kind of come into a new role and get to know those people is really important. So it might be that certain meetings are done over Zoom. It might be that you have more informal phone calls that you are not waiting around to take because that can be anxiety inducing as well, or it might even just be keeping in touch over platforms, such as Slack. We use Hangouts every day and we just kind of chat informally, either about work or about other things.

Jessica Pardoe:
And I find that that really helped me keep connected in the pandemic. And I think for a new starter, that would be really important. Because it’s kind of with your colleagues, but without the pressure of having to appear on Zoom or having to think about the way that you’re talking over the phone, for example. So that would be my piece of advice. And that’s coming from someone who does kind of thrive of human connection. I find that vary in the ways you communicate does really, really help. And that has helped me and hopefully it will help any new starters to the industry as well. But fingers crossed there shan’t be another lockdown. I would like to think that we won’t be in that situation again. But like you said, you absolutely never know.

Azeem Ahmad:
Yeah. 100%. I hope there isn’t as well. Jess, absolutely brilliant. Genuinely one of the most enjoyable episodes that I’ve recorded. So thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, your wisdom. If people are listening to this and they’re thinking, “I would love to connect with you, I’d love to follow you, find out more about you.” How can they do that?

Jessica Pardoe:
I would say that I’m most active on Twitter, so you can find me at Jessica Pardoe PR. And I’m also Jessica Pardoe on LinkedIn as well. So if you wanted to connect with me there, that’s absolutely fine. And while I’m here, I’d also like to say that you might like to pop my agency a little follow on Twitter too. They’re at Source_tweets. That’s Source_tweets. And I’d really appreciate a little follow for them too. Thank you.

Azeem Ahmad:
Well, I’ll send you an invoice after for that. I’m only joking. This has been brilliant, Jess. Thank you so much. I’m very pleased and honoured that you chose this podcast to do your podcasting debut. I can tell you this is going to be a hit with the listeners, for sure. I’ve been nodding furiously. Once again, from me to you, thank you so much. And if anybody’s listening to this thinking, “I would love to convert us with this person,” reach out, do it. She is brilliant, very kind, very helpful. And as you already heard, full of knowledge. I’m going to shut up now and I’m going to give you the last word on your episode.

Jessica Pardoe:
Thank you. I would just say exactly what you’ve just said. If anyone’s feeling that they might be at risk of burnout or if they feel like what their situation is, isn’t quite right for them, then please, please do reach out to me. I’m always happy to chat.

Jessica Pardoe:
And I do chat to quite a lot of people on Twitter as well about these kinds of things. I like to say that my DMs are quite a safe space. And if anyone feels like they want to talk about something that they wouldn’t want to talk to anyone else about, then absolutely, I’m your person. So feel free to DM me on Twitter or find me on LinkedIn. I’m happy to chat on either.