In this episode, I interview Sukhjinder Singh about thriving as a minority in digital marketing. Sukhjinder shares his journey in the industry and the changes he has witnessed over the past 15 years. He also discusses the challenges faced by minorities and the progress that has been made in creating a more inclusive and diverse industry….and much more!
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Useful Links
Podcast page: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/azeemdigitalasks
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Sukhjinder’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sukhsingh84/
I Do SEO website: https://idoseo.co.uk/
Episode Transcript
Azeem Ahmad (00:00.856)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Azeem Digital Asks All Round Digital Marketing Podcast. By now we are almost halfway through the current season, season six or season seven. I’ve actually lost count but yolo, we move. I’ve got the amazing Subjinder Singh with me today. We’re talking all about thriving as a minority in digital marketing. I’m really, really excited to watch, listen
learn from him. always, please do like, rate, share, subscribe, tell a friend to tell a friend. We’re also on YouTube. I know many of you enjoy the podcast on Spotify video, so feel free to check us out there. Right, that’s my boring intro over, so welcome to the show my friend.
Sukhjinder Singh (00:45.422)
Hi, Azeem, thanks for having me. One of my favorite gym podcasts listens, so it’s nice to be on it for a change, so yeah, awesome.
Azeem Ahmad (00:52.256)
Amazing look people are learning while they’re lifting. I love that What a legend? Thank you very much for I appreciate it So for those people who? Shamefully don’t know what a legend in this game you are would you mind giving like a little briefing show to yourself, please?
Sukhjinder Singh (00:56.281)
Yes.
Sukhjinder Singh (01:07.194)
Yeah, legend’s a bit a lot to live up to as you saw, best mate. Yeah, so SEO, I’m a freelance SEO now, have been for coming up to two years. Prior to that, was SEO mostly on the agency side for about, coming up to 15 years. So yeah, I worked on the agency side and prior to that, I was a web dev out of uni. So I kind of had a technical.
background and a foundation to start with. Naturally, I into technical SEO and then broadened it out a bit and headed up a couple of SEO departments. And now, yeah, I freelance with big and small clients and I’ve just gotten into a lot more speaking stuffs and podcasts which I really enjoy. And yeah, that’s kind of a summary. I’m quite a technical person.
And so, we were talking earlier off thing, I tend to ramble a little bit sometimes, so I try and of cut it short and make it as concise as possible. But yeah, that’s kind of me in a nutshell.
Azeem Ahmad (02:06.575)
Love that. I’m very excited to get into this episode with you. we’re talking all about thriving as a minority. You mentioned you’ve been around for about 15 years or so. Still look 21, by the way. So off -cut recording, we’ll get some skincare tips. Absolutely. But yeah, tell me about your journey. Like what sort of changes have you seen in the last 15 years?
Sukhjinder Singh (02:19.29)
Cheers mate.
filters.
Sukhjinder Singh (02:28.922)
Yeah, this is quite broad. Yeah, it’s quite a lot. So when I was thinking back about this as well, I wrote down a couple of things because it’s just so much. So I started obviously when SEO was still quite mature. So 2009 time, I would say. And prior to that, I did a little bit of SEO whilst I was doing back then there was a distinction between web design, web development. So was more in the design phase and I included SEO stuff in that in agencies. And at that time, there weren’t that many
opportunities as they are now obviously to get into SEO, certainly nothing at uni and also know apprenticeships and there were very little courses that didn’t require you to have a degree first of some sort. So at that time it was quite hard to get into SEO I found so I ended up doing a couple of courses and basically just kind of started from the bottom in terms of the pay scale to get into an entry -level SEO job and just learnt on the job and so with the
actually been quite not as mature as it is now. It was before the major algorithm updates as well. So things like link building and stuff like that weren’t that mature as they are now in those kinds of strategies. So there was a massive learning curve from a technical SEO kind of standpoint of strategies and things, as well as the cultural aspects and how to progress within organizations and, know, and, know, kind of, you know, just hitting those
different targets and distinguishing yourself. So yeah, very, very kind of not as mature as it is now. so, yeah, so learning was very much, most people that I worked with and started off with were pretty much self -taught. There weren’t any opportunities and you know, you had Ron Fishkin and Moz at that time, which was pretty big. And he’s more of the to stand out people at that time.
But aside from that, you were kind of learning on the job. So yeah, you kind of had each other to kind of learn from and brainstorm with. So it was a different time to say the least.
Azeem Ahmad (04:36.854)
Yeah, I can imagine. Thanks very much for sharing that. It’s amazing to see how much change you’ve seen and come across. But thinking specifically as a minority, are there any, what challenges do you think you faced, especially as a minority?
Sukhjinder Singh (04:56.152)
yeah find this topic quite interesting as well because i was starting to see
at this stage now in the industry that there are a lot more representation and there’s a lot more consideration broadly speaking just in our culture and society in general but also in our industry and I think now our industry is probably one of the most kind of accepting and you know diverse industries I think you know you just go to events like Brighton SEO and stuff and it’s just all there for you to see and it’s very comfortable for minorities and people of any of different backgrounds.
So at that time that I kind of came up, yeah, I guess, and I’m quite from an old school, I’m 40, so I’m from an old school.
generation where I did a lot of, you know, attempt jobs, warehouse works, I’ve been working since I was 16. So getting into any kind of office job was kind of the dream. And so from my perspective, I initially didn’t notice any challenges and any roadblocks and gatekeepers and things like that. But as I kind of matured and learnt, you know, you know, from moving to different companies, oh, people act different ways and more people are more open in certain situations than others to progress you and coach you and things like that.
okay things could be a bit better but at that time you didn’t there weren’t any other opportunities so you just had to kind of deal with it so yeah there were in some cases overt kind of roadblocks for progression in companies but also subtle roadblocks where they were kind of cultural so people didn’t really notice that you are kind of excluded from
Sukhjinder Singh (06:36.602)
conversations or opportunities for internal progression and things like that. And speaking to other minorities, know, other Asians and just broadly speaking, anyone colored background, we tend to share the same thing in that it’s expected that you work a little bit extra. So you kind of give 110 % whatever, and you’re a bit more, you integrate a bit more, you know, that you can.
pick any funny meme from Instagram where people’s driving to work and they’re listening to DMX and as soon as they get there, yeah, it’s all a different personality and then they come from work and then back to yourself. So that’s kind of an analogy I use with that.
And it’s as I’ve gotten older and I see the industry now and the younger people coming up, I think, this is actually, we’re in a much better position. And I get a lot of inspiration from this generation of marketers where they take it, not for granted, but it’s a bit easier and they’re representing a bit more and, you know.
and I take inspiration from that. yeah, those were some of the subtle and overt challenges of having to work extra hard to integrate a bit more, I guess. just kind of, yeah, and just kind of a path of the course kind of takes certain things for granted about, okay, maybe I didn’t get that because of X, Y, Z, or it might be because of this, but I’m just gonna proceed anyway and just work my arse off and then eventually these things will come, you know.
Azeem Ahmad (08:00.687)
Yeah, you literally sound what you just said there sounds exactly like some of the circumstances that I face and I told myself exactly the same thing. Just that if you keep working harder, like you said, 110 percent eventually these chances will come good. But the episode is not about me, it’s about you. So I’m going to shut up. Thinking back to like when you sort of first started.
How, if any, have the demographics of digital marketing changed since when you started? I know you kind of gave a nod to it there, but how much change have you seen since when you began?
Sukhjinder Singh (08:36.002)
Yeah, massively. if I am thinking about this as well, because, you know, because I obviously had a topic in mind and then I thought to myself, are you know, who are the people and what are the groups and things that I take inspiration from and that’s so, so many people. know, Anu and Chima, for example, in the industry, very popular speakers and, you know, and
overtly, I think they support minorities. think they did one in the last sprint in the Ratan SCO, think. They had a bunch of students come down for free to do some training on one of the days, which I thought was pretty awesome. so there are examples like that, know, obviously seeing people like yourself thriving and being visible as a speaker and stuff and groups like Women in Tech SCO.
from a reach that she’s put a lot of work in there over the years. And then I admit, I get a bit jealous sometimes when I see pictures of their meetups, like this one looks like a big laugh, but also like, you know, there’s so much support and love and it would be nice to, and it got me thinking about, yeah, so how about Asians and other minorities as well? And kind of, know, neurodivergence as well in SEO. So a lot of these groups and people have popped up and I think they,
as a baseline, them just doing their own thing and representing themselves and that is a big inspiration. And I think to newcomers and also to experience people and jaded people like myself, but people that overtly create opportunities as well, I think is pretty awesome. And so that’s kind of one thing. I don’t think I answered the question properly. was kind of a couple of areas where I think things have changed quite a bit on pushing things forward.
And on the kind of public speaking side of it as well and seeing people being visible, I oddly had a LinkedIn message a couple of months ago from someone in BC Canada, another Asian person, a Sikh person saying, I’ve seen you a couple of times speaking at Brighton SEO and LinkedIn and that, and you encouraged me to pitch for MozCon. And so here’s my pitch and all that, and I’m just to get some advice on that. And I was taking her back, and I was like.
Sukhjinder Singh (10:49.88)
Well, someone messaged me about that and I was quite embarrassed about it and I thought, okay, well that’s pretty awesome. So I just tried back and forth chatting to the guy like, okay, because I don’t see a lot of Sikhs that look like you, a turban and a beard and stuff doing this stuff. And I also got quite conscious of it, like, okay, well, I think I’ve been true to myself and I represent myself properly, but there’s also that added bit of responsibility, I guess, of
If I was coming up, I would like to see someone look like me doing this. And there are a couple of people that are doing that now. You know, one person comes to mind, Harmeet Singh, who’s a Leicester based agency owner, who traditionally looks like a Sikh like me and does this stuff. And I thought that’s, and that got me started thinking about this topic when I mentioned it to you. And so things like that are quite powerful where they don’t necessarily have to overtly pay things forward.
But just from doing their own thing, I think that adds massive value just as a visual to people coming up and it kind of plants that seed of, yeah, I can do that. I can get on a stage and I can spell out my full name. I don’t have to shorten it as well for people to make it easier. And I think that’s great.
Azeem Ahmad (12:03.267)
Yeah no absolutely, couldn’t agree with you more and then I had a very very similar experience a number of years ago. I was at Brighton SEL and I did a talk.
just came off the stage and there was a guy you normally get people who come and speak to you after giving a talk and this guy came over to me and he was like I’ve come all the way from India and I wanted to come and see you speak like I’ve seen you doing talks and stuff before and he’s like I made a point of going to my manager to try and secure a budget to try and get over here and come here and he showed me all the emails that he sent back and forth he was like I want to go and see this guy and I was just like I was almost crying I was like bloody hell this is like this is what it’s about you know what
Sukhjinder Singh (12:43.662)
That’s big.
Azeem Ahmad (12:45.349)
That’s that’s just massive and I just thought God someone’s made a conscious effort to come all the way from India That’s not a quick flight. It’s a good nine ten hours. Whatever. I was like God. This is This incredible the massive community out there and I I think
Azeem Ahmad (13:02.307)
We should do, we collectively, not me and you, we collectively as an industry should probably do more to try and bridge that divide. But I’m conscious that I’m talking a lot, so again, I’m gonna shut up.
Sukhjinder Singh (13:15.128)
No, no, it’s really valuable that, yeah.
Azeem Ahmad (13:16.675)
You’ve answered one of the questions I was gonna ask you. So I’m just talking about, let’s move on to the theme of like empowerment. And I noticed that you earlier, you mentioned about different groups, for example, neurodivergence and what world team is doing with the FCDC and everything else. Do you think that, you know, traditionally marginalized groups are more empowered now than before? And if so, why?
Sukhjinder Singh (13:40.206)
Yeah, just for my limited kind of perception, just speaking for myself,
So yeah, I’m constantly consuming content, going to conferences where I can and all that. Chatting to people, parts of different WhatsApp and Slack and things like that. And from all of that experience, I do see it be a lot more inclusive and people from diverse backgrounds being a lot more visual and comfortable talking and things like that. if they’re, I mean, I’m quite an introvert. So for me, public speaking and all that is an ongoing challenge.
because I’m an introvert that I do it, not also because it’s good lead gen opportunity, it’s freelance, all that stuff, whatever. It’s just a good thing to do, you know? seeing other people kind of doing that and knowing their stuff as well, yeah, I think it has changed massively. And just thinking about this as well.
I, so for example, the last brightness year I went to where we did speaker training and stuff. the group over there was massively diverse. And so going in there, I was quite nervous. It was like, okay, you know, obviously you’ve got to sit in a circle and all this stuff and everything and get up and talk and that was like, this is actually made a little bit easier kind of playing tricks with the head. I’m like, there’s a person there who’s brown, black, whatever. And then I can, and then, I thought, okay, fine. So there’s that box takes to where I don’t feel self -conscious on that side. And then there also people that,
recognised as neurodivergent and stuff and they’re quite open about that as well. And it’s just a very honest group and that kind of set the tone for the whole conference, talking to other speakers and delegates, very honest, very open, very accepting. And I felt that represented the current state of the industry as far as I can see it with all of these meetups and people that I speak to and stuff. I’m very honest and open and accepting. And if I go back even just five, let’s say 10 years, whatever, when I started it
Sukhjinder Singh (15:41.644)
didn’t feel like that at all. And so I think that’s a massive leap. And I think there are areas where things can be improved as well. Just speaking from an agency, head of SEO experience as well, you there’s a lot more that we can do collectively as the we as well as broader society, think, prompted by us, I guess.
Azeem Ahmad (16:02.564)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, look, let’s get into that. What can companies agencies, what can they do to create, you know, sort of more, you know, inclusive, diverse, sort of supportive environment for everybody?
Sukhjinder Singh (16:15.417)
Yeah.
Well, I think just to preface it with, I think most people just want to do good by their colleagues and all that as well. And as a minority coming up, I’ve learnt over the years about people’s intentions from, it’s not as simple as, there’s a roadblock for me to progressing because of this or one person or a culture. There’s loads of different factors in that. it just comes sometimes, I think it comes down to being a minority where the majority people are naturally tribal and whatever. they might not naturally think to include you in certain things or whatever.
It can be as simple as the social culture in an agency where you might not feel as included to celebrate things like, know, Eid Diwali, Vizocchi, Hanukkah, whatever.
little subtle things might collect and might build a picture in your head of, well, maybe I’m not as included in these kinds of things and might be maybe even not a slight resentment, but like, I might not be open to pitch myself for certain things because I might not be championed to be a speaker or representative of a company or agency, for example. And so I think subtle things like inclusion, I know it sounds wishy washy, it’s been bastardized over the years, but
Genuine inclusion in earnest not just taking a box well, what do you guys celebrate and can we kind of build in the calendar? know different events and all that, know make have fun and get to know people at that level cultural level I think is a small but massively impacting thing just from seeing from a manager perspective and on the other side as well so that kind of social inclusion in agencies and companies as well as more more hot more hard things of like, okay Here’s an opportunity for speaking his opportunity to
Sukhjinder Singh (17:54.268)
us, do some legion, whatever, I want to give all of you an equal opportunity because the other side of it is all of us want to be in a meritocracy where you’ve just got an equal opportunity, you’re not preferred over other people. So just making it equal and I think those kind of two simple things can help and the root of that is just keeping in mind empathy and other people’s perceptions, you know, if I’m a brown person.
and working with non -brown people, need to keep in mind their perception of me and maybe they’re not included in a lot of conversations I have with my other brown people, for example. And so it’s just having that perception and just keeping in mind, maybe I should include them and go out of myself to kind of think what else can I, how can I give them equal opportunities kind of thing. So it’s a mindset, yeah.
Azeem Ahmad (18:46.352)
Do you think that varies based on seniority? So do you think it’s different for people who are very junior in the industry versus people who are long in the tooth and have been in the industry, let’s say 10, 15 years?
Sukhjinder Singh (19:01.45)
Yeah, I guess so. In terms of their ability to be more inclusive or their experience of, you know, or both. Yeah.
Azeem Ahmad (19:12.707)
their experience I’d say probably both. I would assume and feel free to disagree that if you’re in the industry for a long time, you are and can be more inclusive than others, I just meant like their experiences of feeling included.
Sukhjinder Singh (19:24.654)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think so. think for myself, yeah, because I’ve seen a few different sides of that and different levels of inclusion and the impacts it can have, subtle and major. Major means people just leaving or whatever, just thinking, yeah, I don’t want to work, kind of thing. Yeah, I think I’m in a, I guess I could say I’m in a better position having seen a lot of that. But then, know, I’ve chatted to people who’ve given me massive perspectives where, I didn’t think of that. You know, I could probably do more of this and more of that. But I think the more experienced
definitely does lend itself to that more understanding and empathy. But also on the flip side, the younger generation, not to sound old, but they’re in a good position as well where I think society is a bit more accepting broadly speaking and people aren’t just ticking a box off including people. They’re in earnest want to know about you and your culture and that a bit more now. That’s how I feel like when I chat to lot of young marketers.
and I see people representing, know, like Chima, for example, where it’s not even a thought that, I’m a brown person in search. It’s as if I’m a person in search that’s kind of killing it. And that’s kind of the goal, isn’t it? Just to not even be able to recognize it. yeah, we’re just people in this industry killing it. It doesn’t matter what color we are kind of thing. I feel like they are, what’s the word? They have more,
Sukhjinder Singh (20:49.166)
Yeah, on podcasts my vocabulary always just kind of gets thrown out of the window. But they’re just better positioned. I think younger people have more of that energy and more enthusiasm, I guess, to kind of do that. So I think you’ve got the older person perspective and the younger person just having a better being in a better position, societal wise. Yeah.
Azeem Ahmad (20:53.312)
Hahaha
Azeem Ahmad (21:11.153)
Yeah. And we’re rapidly approaching the end of episode, but I’ve just got a couple more questions for you. And I think one, it’s always pertinent when I get towards the end. And like I said to you after recording, I’m mindful that some of the audience are quite new and junior in the industry. If they’re listening to this episode and they want to progress, whether that be in their career or do more podcasts or do more speaking or just literally take the next step.
What sort of advice would you give to those people and how they can take that next step, whatever it may be.
Sukhjinder Singh (21:46.338)
So for me with public speaking, I started with webinars and initially I didn’t really have a choice. just during lockdown, we just did weekly webinars and kind of cut my teeth with speaking in front of a camera. And, you know, it was quite comfortable. It was nice gateway because you’re in your house, whatever. And you get used to the mechanics of like speaking and stuff, although you can’t tell in this because I, but, so that was a nice little gateway doing small talks and small things. That’s how I started as well. And then just getting up and presenting
while you know doing a pitch.
to new clients and existing clients and stuff, it’s nice to get that. And the good managers will put you in that position where they know what you’re capable of and they just kind of throw you in that deep end. So you could be proactive and say, you know what, I’d like to take lead on this and present this portion of the presentation or whatever to start with. And just getting used to being in front of people, managing your body language, seeing their language and reading a room, that’s really quite valuable. And then from that, you can just, when you feel comfortable, or if you want to shock your system and just go straight in the deep
spend, why not, then pitch for a talk. And if you pitch for something like Brighton SEO, I can tell from first -hand experience, the support is, you know, the absolute best, like, you know, the speaker training, the support groups, a WhatsApp group, mentor, you know, you get all of that and you just watch other speakers as well. If you feel like, mean, or about pitching for speaking, just watch other speakers and assess their, you know, technical experience and their speaking skills, whatever you think.
and grade it on yourself and say okay I think I’ve got this I’ve got all these books ticked maybe I could if you pick a subject you’re super and also I get confidence with the subject as well if I’m spot on with the subject everything else takes a backseat am I saying and are too much yeah but fair enough at least I get the information out there so I reckon those baby steps and doing what you’re comfortable with but don’t be afraid to shit yourself and shock your system and pitch or something as well because that can also make you rise to the occasion
Sukhjinder Singh (23:47.906)
and do some stuff that you didn’t know you were capable
Azeem Ahmad (23:48.154)
Yeah.
Azeem Ahmad (23:51.492)
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more. I have an answer for the question I’m about to ask you. And I will let you go after this, sorry, but this is really good. I often hear from people who want to get into this space. I want to do this. I want to talk at conference X. I want to present here. want to do this.
Sukhjinder Singh (24:02.446)
No.
Azeem Ahmad (24:14.724)
But there’s already so much information about that topic. How do you stand out? So what advice would you give someone who wants to get into it and be like, well, I want to talk about, I don’t know, technical SEO, but there’s lots of people talking about it. How do you stand out?
Sukhjinder Singh (24:29.666)
Yeah, that’s interesting, because I’m actually doing that for myself again right now with my content strategy as a freelancer. So what I’ve always done with the client content multi -strategy, for example, so I’m looking at the key topics that I have an authority in.
and then having a look at examples of talks and blogs and whatever out there. And then I’m going to see what my idea that I’m really set on. How can I, if there are other talks out there like this, watch it all through and see, okay, is that similar to what I was going to say? Or do I have a twist on that? You know, for example, my first Brighton SEO talk, I did something on a website, migrations, whatever best practices, whatever. It wasn’t super exciting. And then someone else did a counter to that. And I didn’t know it was a surprise at the day. I didn’t know the topic and it was literally opposite.
why you don’t need best practices to do a successful migration and that was straight before mine. was like shit but it benefited the audience because they are two different perspectives so even if you think I’ve got a really good idea but there are other talks put a spin on it if you’re still set on that idea if you don’t think you can differentiate it too much
Azeem Ahmad (25:20.738)
Hahaha
Sukhjinder Singh (25:37.422)
Then come up with something else and rely on your list of core topics that you’re comfortable and experienced in. Just keep repeating the thing like a content audit or keyword research thing.
Azeem Ahmad (25:47.248)
Yeah, no, absolutely. Couldn’t agree with you more. And you literally took the words out of my mouth. The only other thing that I would say is that no topic will ever be complete. Like technical SEO will never be finished, 100 % finished. It’s done. So there’s always something unique that you can add to it. So perfect. This has been absolutely fantastic. I’ve really, really enjoyed having you on the show.
Sukhjinder Singh (26:07.812)
Yeah.
Azeem Ahmad (26:13.496)
And I can’t believe we didn’t do it sooner. So apologies for that. That’s my fault. Before I let you go, though, it would be wrong of me not to give you the opportunity to share your contact details. How can people find you, follow you, connect with you? Where are you at?
Sukhjinder Singh (26:16.27)
Yeah, ditto. now thanks for having me, I really appreciate
Sukhjinder Singh (26:30.136)
Yeah, I’m also doing SEO on LinkedIn and Twitter and idoseo .co .uk is my freelancer website. So yeah, check out my cheesy pictures on there.
Azeem Ahmad (26:39.184)
Share them with me and I’ll put them in the show notes but I’ve really really enjoyed talking to you today. Thank you so much for
giving you time and like I say all the time please do connect with him say thank you even if it’s just for giving up some of his time to share his wisdom and knowledge with you today especially if you’ve learned something please do go out of your way to say thanks and connect with this awesome legend. That about wraps up another episode of the show like I said at the start please do like, rate, share, subscribe, tell a friend to tell a friend and then tell them to tell somebody else and we will see you for the next episode. Peace.
Sukhjinder Singh (27:16.27)
We’ll catch you guys soon. Cheers guys.