In this episode, I interview Amy Hopper, a sociologist and CEO of TOA Group, about the wellbeing challenges faced by agencies and software houses. The conversation highlights the importance of communication, collective wellbeing, and implementing processes for better flow of work, as well as viewing wellbeing as an investment rather than a cost.
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Episode Transcript
Azeem Ahmad (00:01.081)
Hello and welcome back to the Azeem Digital Asks podcast, the all round digital marketing podcast. We are fully back in swing with the new season, a few episodes down and I’m really, really excited for this episode today. We have got someone who is an absolute legend, Amy Hopper joining us today. Amy, thank you very much for joining.
Amy Hopper (00:24.137)
It’s a pleasure as always, as always.
Azeem Ahmad (00:27.117)
You cannot help but smile whenever you have a conversation with Amy because she’s just an absolute legend. But you’re here to see and listen from her. So I’m not going to spend too much time talking. We are going to be talking about something, a piece of research that Amy has done predominantly with agencies and software houses about some of the key wellbeing challenges that they’re having internally at the moment. I’m really, really excited to dig into this with Amy. But before that,
For those people who shamefully do not know about you, Amy, who you are, what you do, would you mind giving an intro to yourself,
Amy Hopper (01:01.698)
Of course. Hello everyone. It’s pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me on, Azeem. I’m Amy Hopper. I am a sociologist by trade specializing in the sociology of work and alienation in the workplace. But previous to that for my SINs, I’m an ex -marketing agency CEO and marketing consultant. So know very, very much about the area. I now run a company called TOA Group, which is a performance consultancy.
specialising in removing wellbeing barriers to produce higher performing teams.
Azeem Ahmad (01:35.839)
Nice. And again, that is why I don’t introduce people because I would not have done it as well as you did. So, yeah, look, as I mentioned, I gave a nod to this this study that you did and I think that’s probably the best place to start. So would you mind sharing a little bit about what that actually is and what actually inspired you to start looking into these sort of challenges that agencies and software houses having?
Amy Hopper (01:40.964)
Elevator pitch down!
Amy Hopper (02:04.848)
So, I mean, as part of TUA group, what we do is we are there to enhance performance, not just in marketing agencies, software houses, but all businesses as a whole. And the performance consultancy game, it normally comes from the angle of sort of like your traditional business coaching or your economics perspective, looking at the bottom line facts, figures, black and white, et cetera. Whereas we take more of a psychological and sociological approach to it.
So although the term well -being is somewhat bastardized, it means everything like doing yoga on a rooftop to drinking green tea, we’re seeing it as, no, we’re enhancing the performance of the team. It’s reflecting on the bottom line, improving efficiency, reducing turnover rates, et cetera. It’s just that we’re using well -being methods as a tool to do that. And as part of that, we need to make sure that we’re keeping our ears to the ground and actually
not resting on our laurels and thinking, well, we’re qualified sociologists, so we know this, we’ve read this study, but actually asking people what is going on, what is happening, what is happening for leaders, what is happening for agency owners, what is happening for the people in these teams, so that when we go in and we’re creating workshops and we’re creating new systems to be able to tackle these challenges and come up with solutions, that it’s actually reflective of what’s going on, not what we’ve just read in the book.
So after doing, I did a keynote for Gaida, the Grow Your Digital Agency conference. And it was a keynote on how to grow resilience within the agency, within yourself and grow your agency through those challenges. And some of the conversations I had afterwards were incredibly, incredibly interesting. So every quarter we decide to do, we do this research, we either pick a certain subject or we pick a certain industry. So we chose to do it within…
marketing agencies, software houses, we took 40 agencies in the UK, Romania, Hungary and Poland, interviewed the agency leaders and created this research packet on what was actually going on.
Azeem Ahmad (04:15.646)
Nice. So very thorough and very broad as well, not just in the UK. I have my own thoughts on it, but that’s for for a different day. So, yeah, look, I guess let’s just dive in. So what were some of the, you know, the main well -being issues that came out of this research?
Amy Hopper (04:25.967)
Yeah
Amy Hopper (04:38.252)
It was really interesting actually, because it didn’t really reflect on, regardless of size, regardless of country, and regardless of type of business, there were some really, really common threads that came out as challenges that all of them were facing. That all centered around, just as a foundation level, all centered around communication and the way that we communicate, particularly in the light of COVID. People coming back into the office got some hybrid working, some people…
fully remote first and communication was a huge, huge factor. it was coming up with things like some people were having a lot of issues, boundary setting, either people taking on too much work or not taking on enough and not communicating that to their team, therefore the flow of work gets upset. There seemed to be a lack of collective wellbeing, a lot more individualistic thinking rather than thinking of the team as a whole or the agency as a whole
the flow of work as a whole. And I think probably one of the biggest things we’re seeing, particularly with the smaller agencies, the smaller software houses, that they’re in that stage of wanting to grow or in that tipping point period between different size levels, there was this anxiety around needing to implement process.
and needing to implement change and create more processes for better flow of work and create better foundation as the business grew, but also not wanting to appear micromanaging and wanting that change to be implemented successfully with all of the team on board. That was a really, really big factor that a lot of the agencies I spoke to were having problems with.
paired with the, I think what we’ve all experienced, entrepreneurs experience that sort of perfectionism of I can’t let something go, I can’t let go of these reins because you’re gonna have to realise that there are going to be people that fall down, are going people that make mistakes as you let those reins go and thinking about the longer term effect of how positive that’s going to be for short term discomfort.
Azeem Ahmad (06:53.71)
Yeah, absolutely. I laughed because in a very similar way, I’ve experienced the same myself in the past. It’s hard to give up control of something that you sort of built basically from the the ground up pretty much. So. You’ve talked a lot about this and you’ve kind of nudged into a question that I’m going to ask you later on anyway, but in terms of what you found out from the back of this.
Is there anything that you sort of didn’t expect, something that surprised you in the findings? mean, you probably had some sort of idea of what you might find out, but was there anything that you saw and you just thought, wow, I wasn’t expecting this?
Amy Hopper (07:34.766)
There wasn’t so much things I weren’t expecting, but I suppose the thing that surprised me the most is that in the industry that we work in and in digital, we’re actually really forward thinking in general. A lot of us are on board with wellbeing, knowing how important it is, knowing how employee wellbeing and how happy people create better work. A lot of us are in that thinking. A lot of us have already invested in therapy.
and a lot of the agencies that I spoke to have their own structures, their own ways of working, or even provide therapy or provide therapy services to their teams, which is absolutely incredible to hear. I suppose one thing out of that that I found a little surprising is there is still this mindset of therapy or using therapy or using these, like the sort of services that I provide when things get
rather than thinking of it as a preventative service and investing in therapy and encouraging your team to use the services that you’re providing before it gets to that point. Like you don’t want to be, instead of running around putting out the fire, make sure the fire doesn’t start in the first place. making sure, using those services to keep yourself well and keep everything ticking along really nicely.
rather than using it as a fire extinguisher when you think, my God, everything’s on fire. And that’s probably like a big thing I found that was across the board no matter what the size.
Azeem Ahmad (09:04.129)
Yes.
Azeem Ahmad (09:09.648)
feel like that should be on a t -shirt instead
Amy Hopper (09:12.004)
Every time I talk to you, you like a quote that I say. Thank you. What was the last quote? Digital is the industry where you go to sleep an expert and wake up a
Azeem Ahmad (09:17.264)
It’s because you’re so quotable as a compliment, we should get t -shirts to say,
Azeem Ahmad (09:33.476)
Another one of mark that that’s gonna be all over socials next week. So We should start aside business of like, you know marketing quotes and t -shirts we could make it Anyway, we digress I apologize
Amy Hopper (09:34.744)
I love it, I love being questioned, thank you.
Amy Hopper (09:43.102)
Yeah, yeah.
That’s it.
Azeem Ahmad (09:49.592)
It’s quite interesting really and you can see me like nodding away. I’m just trying to absorb everything. You kind of touched on in one of your earlier answers, you know, between the sizes of companies. Were there any sort of major differences you saw in some of the challenges between the smaller businesses and the larger businesses or was there a lot of commonality between them?
Amy Hopper (10:09.796)
There was a lot of commonality between them, hell of a lot of commonality. suppose the small businesses, there was more of the challenge of wanting to give away work and that control and that perfectionism. I’d say with the larger businesses…
Amy Hopper (10:27.992)
they still have this huge communication challenge between, not only between different teams, but also between different ages. And when you’ve got different generations and the way that they communicate being very, very different. So the smaller businesses, they tend to be more interaction between people. People tend to know people more on a personal level.
And therefore, I hate this phrase and I hate, don’t like it when people use it, but that there’s more of a sense of family, quote unquote. So people are often more aware of other individual struggles, whereas in the larger businesses, is this idea of sometimes you don’t know the face behind an email. So the collective wellbeing is not as high and it’s much more sort of individualistic, particularly if people are working from home.
seeing people face to face, having more difficulties with collaboration, boundary setting, taking accountability for work and sometimes that process of work, from getting it from the top of the funnel all the way through to delivery and payment, that process is becoming much longer and disjointed because the flow of communication is not as easy.
Azeem Ahmad (11:43.765)
Hmm. I’m going to pick your brains a little bit more about that later on. You just, you just got me thinking when you talking about different, different sizes of company and I wanted to ask you about geography as well, but I kind of wanted to do a two in one question if that’s okay. Anything that you saw that stood out based on
Amy Hopper (11:47.34)
Yeah, go for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amy Hopper (11:59.731)
and
Azeem Ahmad (12:07.749)
different geographical locations and then also as a free bolt on. I presume a lot of these companies work across different time zones as well. So did you see any sort of challenges that people had, especially when working in different sizes of companies, different locations and also different time zones as well?
Amy Hopper (12:31.684)
There was definitely a geographical difference for sure. The agencies that I spoke to, the agency leaders that I spoke to, and they brought up these challenges themselves and they said that in the UK, I know we have a lot of things and a lot of progress we still need to make, but in general, most people, particularly within the digital industry, are aware
well -being challenges, imposter syndrome, anxiety, depression, mental health issues and what they are, kind of how to recognise them and what needs to be done to do something about it. There is a general sort of base knowledge that exists and the stigma is reducing. People are able to have conversations like this about therapy, about their therapist. Whereas in Eastern Europe, and when I was talking to the agencies in particularly Romania and Hungary and Poland, that stigma still very much exists.
Azeem Ahmad (13:15.002)
Mm.
Amy Hopper (13:26.128)
And particularly when you’re talking about communication and flow of work, there are people that will take on work or won’t ask if they are having struggles, won’t bring anything up, won’t ask the question because they still have this idea of, I’m going to feel stupid or I’m going to feel as though I am weak in some way. If I ask for assistance,
Whereas a lot of the owners were getting very frustrated because they need this information, like they need to know. They don’t want you to take on something that you can’t do because then they know that’s going to create a larger problem later down the line. And it was about working with those owners and those directors to say, well, what environment are we creating here to make sure that people genuinely, genuinely feel psychologically safe in order to open
because a lot of these countries where you have to think, okay, well, one of the agency and as I spoke to, he said, I think the problem is that we used to be a communist country and there’s a huge level of distrust still with authority. And he said that feeds into our agency life, that feeds into our dynamic and our hierarchical system. So those are very, very difficult situations and have to be handled in a different way to how we would handle.
Okay, for sure.
Azeem Ahmad (14:55.597)
Absolutely and you’ve got me thinking about something which I definitely want to ask you about. It’s definitely an assumption on my part and I’m not the expert which is why you’re here and I’d love to hear your opinion on this. I don’t think that we can look at this topic in isolation so I was going to say how much of an impact do you think…
external factors play on people at work such as politics like in the UK we’ve had Brexit elections etc etc you just mentioned there about previously being a communist country how much of an impact if any do you think that these factors play on people’s well -being at work?
Amy Hopper (15:35.596)
It’s huge. It’s absolutely massive. It’s integral. I mean, you just even just look at the cost of living crisis, of course, the cost of living, there is going to be this general anxiety of a society before they even get to work and experience the their own challenges and or issues that may come up within the workplace.
And if you’ve got someone who’s coming to work and they can’t afford their rent or they’re working two jobs or they are having challenges with their family, they can’t get a doctor’s appointment, these are going to have massive, massive, massive implications on people before you even consider that they’ve got to do a job. And it’s something that we talk to leaders about with regard to when we do empathy training or empathy leadership training.
in that yes, people are there to work for you, yes, you have a company, yes, you have a job, and they’ve got a job to do, but at the same time, you need to be aware of what’s going on for that person individually and what’s happening in society as a whole, because being more aware of that, more empathetic of that will make you a better leader and will also get those people doing better work for you at the end of the
Azeem Ahmad (16:56.133)
Hmm, absolutely. Let me pick your brains a little bit further on that and then we’ll go into how organisations should tackle these challenges.
Amy Hopper (17:04.076)
Really.
Azeem Ahmad (17:05.285)
So when it comes to empathy, I had a conversation with a friend recently once and he’s a manager in a different organisation. He’s got somebody in his team and I can’t remember exactly what he said, but it was just something like a document needed to be delivered from this person to another person. And he had sight of the document because he was CC’d into it.
Amy Hopper (17:26.681)
Yeah.
Azeem Ahmad (17:27.588)
person who created it he said has had some issues at home didn’t go into it but they didn’t deliver the document to the other person and that he basically said I’m not gonna send it on on that person’s behalf because that’s the job regardless of their well -being issues how often do you see like situations like this and how do you like how do you approach that like my first reaction was
That’s quite harsh, really. I know it’s a very specific situation. Somebody’s obviously having challenges. think about like myself when I’ve had challenges. Work is a nice welcome distraction for me. I throw myself into it. But to just be quite, in my opinion, cold and be like, look, that’s his job. He needs to do it. Where do you draw the line between being empathetic and then going overboard in speech marks?
Amy Hopper (18:16.778)
That’s a really, really good question. And it’s something that came up a lot in the research that we were doing in the leaders, managers, directors. Where is the line between wanting to be empathetic and understanding of someone’s personal situation and also at the end of the day, realizing that there is still a job to be done and there is still a business that has to run and function and make money.
Amy Hopper (18:47.576)
That question is something that one needs to be answered by each person, each business owner, each manager individually on where they believe that line is with their team and in line with the goals of the business. But also at the end of the day, we are all human beings. And although that, in that situation, I don’t know the complete context of that situation.
I would wonder what the person might say if the situation had been reversed. And he was the one that was having struggles that were not full of his own and had just made a mistake and not sent a document through. And we tend to find that in those situations where we have practiced empathy towards someone.
Azeem Ahmad (19:23.14)
Hmm.
Amy Hopper (19:42.392)
practice collective work being and shown our humanity and our vulnerability that when we are unfortunately in that situation which we are likely to be because the world dishes out its cards randomly and having shown that to someone else it is more likely that we will also receive that kindness for ourselves.
Azeem Ahmad (19:59.086)
Yeah, absolutely.
Amy Hopper (20:10.03)
which is definitely something that I’ve experienced in my life, for sure.
Azeem Ahmad (20:13.614)
Yeah, plus one, definitely. I don’t want to stop you because I’m learning loads from you. on that theme, how would you say some of the organisations have sort of tried to tackle these these well -being challenges? Are there any sort of interesting strategies and approaches that you’ve seen?
Amy Hopper (20:33.7)
One really interesting strategy that I saw was a really, really interesting agency and great agency owner and a lot of these, a lot of the things that were coming up, they were saying, okay, well, let’s look at how you’re hiring and the personality steps you’re hiring. And there was one guy that I was having conversation with, I shall mention his name, but he said that every single person that he hired, he
that he took out for dinner and assessed whether he enjoyed the dinner.
Amy Hopper (21:12.148)
And in that situation, I thought, okay, well, how does that work? He said, okay, well, I don’t hire so much based on skill. I hire on personality and I hire on whether that person’s personality is going to fit and mesh in with the team and how they’re going to fit onto that sort of board. And if I enjoy the dinner and I enjoy spending time with that person and I’m able to communicate with them, that’s the most important thing. So
based all of his hiring based on communication and based on whether he enjoyed the dinner and therefore created this system. And when I said, I was going through some of the challenges that other agencies are having, was sort of key communication, boundary setting, change in implementation, et cetera. I said, are you having any of these? He said, no, I don’t have any. He had a whole different set of challenges.
but didn’t have any of the others that resulted from communication. And I just thought that was a really, really interesting perspective. Obviously, it probably wouldn’t work for everyone, particularly the larger ones going and having to do like 200 dinners every month. But I just thought, oh, that’s really… Not something that I can really put in a workshop as a, should do this, this is a great strategy, but a strategy that he developed and worked really well for him and his agency.
Azeem Ahmad (22:13.776)
Hahaha
Azeem Ahmad (22:26.902)
I love that. You’ve just reminded me of something quite funny, which I’m going to share very briefly. Many years ago, I got to the final stage of an interview, right? And before the final stage, they made me do like one of these online personality tests. I didn’t think anything of it. The final stage was with the CMO and two other people. The other two other people were in the room. Beginning of the interview, the CMO walks in.
slaps down this like 10 page document on the desk, no hello nothing, he says right we’re in a situation here’s option A here’s option B I need you to pick one right now because I believe that you sit on the fence too much and you fold under pressure is that true? and I was like well hello nice to meet you too I was like I’d rather the dinner option than just believe in like an online thing which probably doesn’t tell you anything and I picked an option and I was like
What does this mean? And then he said, well, this thing says that you might fold under pressure and you’re diplomatic. You can’t pick an option. So the dinner option is a fantastic, fantastic shout. I love it. I might, I might steal it. So apologies to your president.
Amy Hopper (23:34.146)
Yeah, well, it’s not mine. It’s not mine to deal with. I thought it was a great thing, but yeah, I like that. I think that’s kind of like monitoring your stress response, right, and whether you’re going to pick how you’re going to respond rather than whether you actually pick an option, I imagine. Different people have different ways of how they hire. I think also as well, the agencies I found that, or the businesses I find are most successful.
And also the businesses that tend to bring TOA in to do workshops and this kind of work. It’s the ones that really practice what they preach. think there is not so much in our industry, in other industries I’ve seen, there is sort of this tick box culture of, yes, we do wellbeing, tick. Yes, we look after people, tick. They’ve got therapists to talk to, done. Like Dun and Dust did, boom, wellbeing done, pat ourselves on the back.
And actually, it’s about practicing what you preach. that’s just, that’s not, Amy, come in and work with my team. I’m like, no, no, no, you’re part of this. This is everyone being involved in practicing what you preach from the top down. your, your, your team are not going to be, you know, working within their nine to five hours and not doing emails outside of work. If you’re in the office till, till seven, eight PM and they can see that they’re not going to feel safe.
talking honestly and feel like they’re in a psychological space in order to do so if you don’t do the same and you don’t foster that environment. So the ones that find that are most successful in that area are the ones that really get involved and show their vulnerability as well.
Azeem Ahmad (25:14.904)
Yeah, I love that. And you kind of nodded on to the next area I was going to ask you about in terms of leadership and how important they are when it comes to comes to situations like this. guess it’s a case of sort of practicing what you preach, I guess.
Amy Hopper (25:31.202)
Yeah, completely. And I think as well, it’s about realizing that, yeah, you’ve got business goals and you’ve got team goals and everyone is working towards those. But realizing that everyone is an individual and also no one loves your business as much as you do. I think it was a, dare I say, a Gary V video that I saw where he said, you’re gonna love your business.
You’re gonna love your business 10 out of 10. No one’s gonna love your business 10 out of 10. Stop expecting them to. But if you can get them to seven, you’ve done a great job. But realizing that people are individual, they’ve got their own individual goals. Not everyone wants to win. Not everyone wants to make a huge amount of profit. Everyone has individual motivations. If you can find out how people are individually motivated, what they want, whether it’s time off, whether it is more money, whether it
more personal development budget, whatever it is, find out what that is, then essentially you’ve got a cheat sheet to win and push people and your businesses as far as you want it to go.
Azeem Ahmad (26:40.099)
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more. I didn’t really frame it or think of it in that way in terms of, you know, 10 out of 10 and try and get people to a seven. So that’s really, really helpful. Thank you. Another quotable, I should say. It’s all good. It’s all good.
Amy Hopper (26:53.924)
I can’t I can’t have that one. That’s definitely a guy for you. I’ve nicked that. I’ve nicked that for sure. There’s this idea when we’re talking about this tick box culture as well as when I said treating people like individual particularly in the performance industry and you’ll get other performance consultants and they’ll have this amazing list of people they work with like we’ve worked with Olympians and we’ve worked with we’ve worked with
Manchester City Football Club and we’ve already… And I think that’s wonderful. Those are great people. But every single one, every single person on that team wants to win. They’ve all got the same goal. Sandra in HR, she doesn’t want to win the Premier League. Sorry. She doesn’t care. She wants to probably come to work, like have a good work -life balance, like do a good day’s job, feel like she’s made a difference and go home and see her kids.
Treating people like individuals is really, really important if you’re going to then focus them towards the company goals as a whole.
Azeem Ahmad (28:00.901)
I’m going to make it my mission now when I’m editing this podcast is find out who works in HR at Man City Football Club. Just send them a t -shirt and say.
Amy Hopper (28:09.444)
That was a quote I actually had, like Sandra in HR doesn’t want him in the Premier League. course she does it, doesn’t.
Azeem Ahmad (28:15.09)
I love that. No, you’re absolutely right. And again, I didn’t even think of it like that, which…
Again, although there’s humour involved, it’s actually really, really understandable. some of these things, certainly I’m finding having a conversation with you now, you don’t immediately think about these things. You just kind of gloss over them. But when you frame it like that, it does take you back a bit. And you think, God, this is something that I actually need to look at. We are rapidly approaching the end, but I’ve got two more questions for you. And one of them is literally this.
Amy Hopper (28:45.301)
I’ll for it, yeah.
Azeem Ahmad (28:47.705)
If there are people in agencies or software houses who are listening or watching this episode, they’ve already taken away so much gold information from you. But if there’s some advice that you can give to them who they’re looking to improve their workplace well -being, for example, what would that advice be?
Amy Hopper (29:07.658)
I would say empathy is the most important tool you can have as a leader or as a work colleague. And I would also say that if you’re looking to engage in therapy and or any sort of wellbeing practice or personal development practice to do so before the fire starts. To do it to…
to make sure the fire doesn’t start and keep you in a good place rather than thinking it’s something you only do when the challenge begins.
Azeem Ahmad (29:41.099)
I love that. Absolutely. then to sort of bolt on to it, because I’m sure in your professional experience, you’ve probably come across this stereotypical person who
Let’s say somebody’s watched this or listened to this and they go back to, let’s say, somebody in the board, CMO, CFO, CEO, whoever, they’ve gone back and they’ve said, right, I’ve watched this incredible podcast and I think we could benefit from having a workplace well being looked at and assessed and improved. That person will immediately say, sounds great, but how much money is it going to make me?
What would your advice be to those people to try and have these conversations with very number oriented, number driven, sort of, I would say, tough exterior, stiff people?
Amy Hopper (30:28.116)
Yeah, that’s a brilliant question because we get that all the time, particularly with well -being seen as woo -woo sometimes. It’s not a cost, it’s an investment. And it is the amount of, say for example, just the figures with regard to presenteeism, people coming into work when they feel they have to, when they’re actually ill, costs businesses twice as much as absenteeism. Just a simple fact of we did a workshop last year in
Two C -suite team members were about to leave because they didn’t like the culture and we did the series of workshops they didn’t leave and that saved the business 65 ,000 pounds just in recruitment fees and retraining alone. if you think how many people like that it’s about enhancing the efficiency and productivity of a business whether that is reducing the turnover rate of staff whether that is increasing E &PS scores making people just generally happier or it all has a huge
tangible and measurable effect on the bottom line. This is an investment. It’s not a cost. It’s going to come back tenfold into your business.
Azeem Ahmad (31:36.293)
I love that, that’s gold. Thank you very much for sharing that in a perfect way. Perfect way to round out the episode. But before I let you go, it would be a crime if I didn’t give you the opportunity to tell people more about where they can find, follow, connect with you and reach out with you.
Amy Hopper (31:40.314)
You’re very welcome.
Amy Hopper (31:56.27)
Brilliant. You can go to toagroup .co .uk, get in touch there, or please connect with me on LinkedIn at
Azeem Ahmad (32:04.568)
Legend I’ll share all of these in in the show notes. Amy Thank you very much for giving up some of your time today as always my friends been
Pleasure lots of quotables. I’ve got at least 10 which I’ve marked down for myself to listen back to so Thank you very much And yeah, I really appreciate it that about rounds up this episode as you’ve seen Amy is a fantastic guest absolutely love it Please do reach out to her even if it’s just to say thank you for taking the time to share Your just in general awesomeness and then the boring bits I always say at the end, please like write share and subscribe tell a friend
to tell a friend and we will see you on the next episode.
Amy Hopper (32:49.326)
Thank you guys,